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What role does storytelling play in our personal and professional lives? On November 16, people from around the globe came together for a discussion on the power of narrative at the latest event in Booth’s Meeting of the Mind series, the Impact of Effective Storytelling.

The conversation was led by experts Guy Rolnik, clinical professor of strategic management at Chicago Booth and former financial journalist, editor, and policy entrepreneur, and Vu Tran, associate professor of practice in the arts at the University of Chicago and author of the novel Dragonfish.

Moderated by Allison Cuddy, director of the Chicago Humanities Festival, their conversation touched on everything from storytelling’s constant presence in our lives to how specific we should make our stories to the ethics of storytelling.

Allison Cuddy, Vu Tran, and Guy Rolnik at Meeting of the Minds.

- Good afternoon.

I'm Austin Goolsbee of the
University of Chicago's

Booth School of Business.

I wanted to welcome everyone and thank you

for joining us today for
the Meeting of the Minds.

This event series is a collaboration

between Chicago Booth and
the Stevanovich Institute

on the Formation of Knowledge.

We bring together faculty
to explore the intersection

of business and the human
and how that can lead us

to a richer grasp of the human experience.

Today's topic will be
centered on storytelling

and the power that stories
have on the way we think

and make decisions.

We have the privilege
of discussing this topic

with a fabulous group of speakers.

Our first speaker is Guy Rolnik.

Guy is a clinical professor
of strategic management

at Booth.

For the past 28 years

he has lived and worked at the intersection

of business, finance, regulation,
politics, and the media.

First as a financial journalist and editor,

later as a business
entrepreneur and founder

of a media company.

And in the last decade,
as a policy entrepreneur

using media to drive structural
reforms in the economy.

Rolnik's work as founder and chief editor

of a leading business newspaper

dramatically influenced the ideas, norms,

and values in Israeli political economy,

and brought about significant changes

in regulatory policies and legislation.

He also literally teaches
the class on storytelling

and business at Booth.

Next, we have Vu Tran.

Vu is an assistant professor of practice

in the arts at the University of Chicago.

He's a novelist and a short
story writer whose fiction

primarily concerns the
Vietnamese diaspora in America

and the ongoing and inherited
effects of displacement.

His first novel, "Dragonfish,"
was a 2015 New York Times

notable book.

His fiction has also
appeared in publications,

such as the O. Henry Prize Stories

and the Best American Mystery Stories.

He won a 2009 Whiting
Writer's Award for Fiction,

has received fellowships
from the National Endowment

of the Arts, McDowell,
Yaddo, Bread Loaf, Sewanee,

and other organizations.

Our conversation today will
be moderated by Alison Cuddy.

Alison is the Marilynn
Thoma artistic director

of the Chicago Humanities Festival,

where she leads the creative
direction of the festival.

She brings more than 15 years’ experience

developing humanities
programming for diverse publics,

including 10 years at
WBEZ, our NPR affiliate

here in Chicago.

There, she gained a
national profile as the host

of the station's award-winning
flagship program

"848" and helped launch Odyssey,

a nationally syndicated
talk show of arts and ideas.

Alison moderates public
forums in partnership

with many of the city's
cultural institutions

and community organizations.

She has an MA in English from
the University of Pittsburgh

and a BA in cinema studies
from Concordia University

in Montreal.

In 2019, she was appointed
by mayor Lori Lightfoot

to co-chair the city of Chicago's
cultural advisory council.

She also serves on the boards
of the Arts Club of Chicago

and the Chicago Reader.

We are thrilled and lucky
to have the three of them

with us today at our Hyde Park campus.

So with that, let me
turn it over to Alison.

- Thank you so much, Austin.

And it is great to be here.

Thanks to the Stevanovich
Institute and Chicago Booth

for hosting us and obviously to Guy and Vu

for being here with us today.

So I'm gonna talk you through
the format of this event

and what it's gonna look like.

We're gonna talk for about 50 minutes,

have a conversation together.

And then we received lots of questions.

We have so many people joining us today.

We have three thousand people registered
from around the world,

right here in Chicago, in Dubai,
and everywhere in between.

So we've got lots of
questions that I'll pepper

throughout the conversation.

But we also encourage you to ask questions

in the Zoom chat now.

So as you're listening
to the conversation,

things come up, feel free
to drop them in the chat,

and we'll try to get to
as many of them as we can

toward the end of this conversation.

And to start things off,

so you feel fully invested in this,

we're gonna do a short poll.

So we ask you to weigh in on the question,

where does storytelling impact
your daily life the most?

Is it through advertising?

Is it through news?

Is it through your personal
life or social media?

So think about that,

fill in the poll,

we'll keep an eye on the results.

But Guy and Vu,

it is so great to be here with you.

And I wanted to start with
a pretty basic question,

which is what got you
interested in storytelling?

So Vu, why don't you start us off?

- Well, I guess what
made me consciously aware

that I wanted to write stories,

I mean, I've always wanted to be a writer.

I remember very vividly in the first grade

you'd go off into your reading groups.

And anytime the teacher would assign

a fiction-writing assignment,

there was something so thrilling about it,

not just the act of writing
it, but then sharing it.

And from then on, I didn't
want to be anything else.

It's always been kind of
a blessing and a curse

to know exactly what you
wanna be when you grow up.

So from the age of six on,

I realized that that's
what I wanted to do.

I could psychoanalyze
it all sorts of ways,

but I think one big feature

is that I've always been a
control freak, to be honest.

And I think there's something,
you have complete control

when you're writing a story,

especially on paper and you're
not necessarily performing

to outside eyes.

And there's just a level of
control when you're shaping

a story, the people in it, the
world that you're exploring,

that always appealed to me

and appealed, especially
to my need for control.

- Need for control.

Probably be talking about
that, controlling the narrative

and when you can't control the narrative.

Guy, you come to storytelling

from so many different points of view.

You are a journalist,

you think about storytelling
in the context of policy

decision-making, in finance,
you teach storytelling.

So what for you was the first
thing that made you realize,

oh, this is of interest to me?

- First of all, I just
learned something new.

It probably has to do with
me also being compulsive.

(laughs)

That's a much easier explanation

instead of going through
my whole life story,

I can say, "Well, I'm compulsive,

so I need to control the story."

Okay, so thank you for that too.

So here's what I think.

First of all there is the question,

when did I become a storyteller?

And then when did I become
interested in storytelling?

So you'd think that...

So I started to be a
journalist like 30 years ago,

and you'd think that this
has to do with journalism.

And actually no.

When I look back at my career,

turns out that I became a storyteller,

I started very much
interested in storytelling

and to tell stories when
I founded my company.

Because when you're an entrepreneur,

actually you survive only
if you are able to convince

and persuade a lot of people.

So, pretty soon after I
founded my own company,

I ran out of money and I had
to tell stories to investors

and to the board of directors

and to the employees that wanted to leave.

So I really had a lot
of hands-on experience.

Like for me, storytelling
in the first year

until the company became successful,

the first years, it's
all about storytelling.

And so it's about survival for me.

And this is what sometimes I tell students

at some point in your life,

the only thing that is gonna save you

in your business career is storytelling.

And then when did I become
interested in storytelling?

Not as a storyteller.

This is couple of years
after I started teaching.

So I teach classes on the
political economy of regulation,

in a way, is how do companies,
are trying to shape

their non-market environment,

how they're trying to influence
the legislations, policies,

the media, how media
influences politicians,

and regulators, and so on.

So the more I taught this
class, I realized that actually,

you'd think that it's about lobbying,

it's about money, it's
about power, and all that.

And the more I developed
my thinking about

those known market environments,

I realized that at the end of the day,

it's all about storytelling.

So companies, lobbyists,
media, politicians,

they all use storytelling to persuade.

- Yes, absolutely.

That is very interesting, and that tension

between being persuasive and
also telling an authentic story

is something I think we'll
come to a little bit later

in the conversation.

But I wanna go to our poll results.

And I am a little bit surprised by this,

but I'm curious to hear
what you two have to say.

So in terms of where storytelling impacts

your daily lives the
most, social media 13%,

advertising 8%, that's
intriguing, news 23%,

but topping the chart,
in-person relationships 56%.

More than half of the people watching this

think storytelling impacts them the most

in their personal relationships.

So what do we make of that, Guy?

- So I think maybe people are more aware

of how storytelling is important

in their interpersonal relationships

and communication and so on.

But if I had to choose,

I would say that storytelling
is central to politics.

In many ways, politics is a theater.

The ability to understand really
what politicians are doing

and to evaluate them
is very minimal, okay?

The world is very complicated out there.

So politicians are storytellers.

They have their own personal stories.

They have the stories that they tell.

They have the stories out
there in the market of ideas

that they have to tap into it.

So politics is storytelling.

Now I'm surprised that
people think that advertising

does not influence them.

Advertising influences everyone.

The reason that we buy Nike shoes for $130

has to do with the story of who is Nike

and why we like Nike.

And brands have stories in many ways.

And we pay premiums for brands
because they are stories.

We are not fully aware of that.

We drink the sugar with water,

but we call it the
meaning, the taste of life.

But at the end of the
day it's about a brand.

That a brand has usually
behind the brand, the story.

- Yeah.

Well, that might have something to do

with why people don't think
advertising influences them.

They think they can see through it, right?

They're smarter.

- Well, I think I'm both
surprised and unsurprised

that it's so low because yeah,

advertising is in the
background of our lives,

but it absolutely
affects everything we do.

Actually, the 56% you said
was personal interaction?

- Personal, yeah.

Personal relationships.

Family, friends.

And it's true, we do tell each
other stories all the time.

- Yeah.

Actually, that was what I would have said.

I was actually expecting
people to say social media

or advertising or the news, one of those.

I think your personal interaction,

I think every single day

when you interact with people,

you're telling a story about yourself,

the way you dress, how
you talk, how you gesture,

these are not always conscious,

but you're telling a story about yourself

with every element of that.

But when you get home to your partner

or to who you live with,

you're telling them a story about your day

and whether it was a good or a bad story,

a good day or bad day.

And I think that's something
that we both consciously

and subconsciously do anytime we interact.

But funny thing is that we
also do it when we're alone.

I think you tell yourself a story about

how you should be feeling and
what you want the next day.

I think there is a narrative there.

I think because there is a
beginning to it, what you want,

and then there's what
you gotta do to get it.

And the end of the story,
which is you fulfilling it.

We subconsciously do that,

I think, every day alone by ourselves.

- Well, in even a lot of like self-help

or wellness is sort of predicated on that

continually telling yourself a narrative.

And often it's a narrative of improvement,

or I'm going to come through this.

- And I think you of all
people know this, right?

In the book industry,

that self-help is one of the biggest parts

of the book industry.

- Now people have to
tell themselves stories

all the time to build the identity

and stories are key to emotional wellbeing

and to our wellbeing generally.

And the more you use your
story and what you stand for,

and who are your characters in your story,

and what are the values in your story,

it's easier to navigate
life and to make decisions.

- Well, I'm sorry.

- Go.

- I just gonna say because you were saying

it's about survival,
and I absolutely agree.

I think stories are about
survival and sanity.

Not to make it too--

- Sanity also, I agree.

- Because I mean, I just think in general,

I mean, they're always
different motivations

for why we tell stories,

but life is so messy and
confusing and uncertain.

I think stories do some
very crucial things.

It distills incoherent
information into like I said,

that manageable narrative,
beginning, middle, and end,

that you can create a coherent portrait

of who you think you are.

It puts the audience in the story.

So it comes alive in a way
that makes the audience

believe it not with their head,

but with their stomach, with their heart.

- Gut instinct.

- And because of all of that,

stories are remembered more easily.

They're more memorable
than say a list of facts.

We always believe a story and feel a story

much more powerfully than
we do a list of facts

or a report of some kind.

And for all those reasons,

I think stories help us organize our ideas

of an otherwise very
chaotic and confusing world.

That's what keeps us sane.

I mean, that's religion.

- One way to think about it
is that the human species

burdened with a brain
that is very sophisticated

and we are constantly bombarded

with so much information,
stimulation, social interactions

and the only way to
make sense out of that,

and the only way to navigate
life is through storytelling.

First of all, the stories
that we tell ourselves,

who am I?

What am I doing here?

What's important for me?

Why I did that?

Why I chose that job?

Why I chose that friend?

So stories help us organize our life.

And the minute you are
not sure about your story,

That, as Vu said, becomes very messy.

So this is why I believe (indistinct)

about survival in a very difficult world.

- Yeah, I mean, Joan Didion
has that famous quote

about storytelling.

We tell ourselves
stories in order to live,

like literally they give us a life story.

So that, and Margaret Atwood talks about

it's something in us in
the way that you were both

talking about.

It's like we come into
the world with this,

this sophisticated brain you mentioned,

and you can't really
destroy that in the human.

Like that is a function of how we—

- And I think Aristotle said that

we quest for meaning all the time

and only through stories,
we can actually make meaning

of life and make meaning of what we do.

- That's why I've always thought

both the dumbest question,

but also the most crucial question in life

is what is the meaning of life?

I mean, it's such a silly question

if you think about it.

What does that mean?

What is the meaning of life?

But also that's why we tell
stories because we need that.

We need some source of...

We need that push, that motivation

to find meaning in everything we do.

And the story is the vehicle for that.

- I think I would say it's very
difficult to get out of bed

in the morning if you don't
have some kind of story

to why you're doing it,
and why you're here.

- We know the meaning of life.

It's football, right?

Football is life if you're
watching "Ted Lasso."

I wanna go to one question.

So, again, we've gotten a lot of questions

from all of you who preregistered.

Thank you, and we encourage
you to keep dropping them

into the Zoom chat.

But this is a great one.

It's another kind of basic question.

It's from Awele who is
in Hargeisa and asked,

What are the qualities…

So we know storytelling matters.

We know it's important,
how we make meaning,

but what are the qualities
needed by a person

who wishes to become
a perfect storyteller?

A perfect storyteller.

- How do you define a perfect storyteller?

- You can never be
perfect in storytelling.

And the question is,

why are you telling you this story, okay?

So in Vu's world,

you tell stories to entertain
and to ignite the imagination.

And it's more of an art.

In the business world,

if you talk about perfect storytellers

in the business world,

in the business world
when you tell stories,

you have a purpose, okay?

There is a reason.

So every now and then you'd meet someone

that is like a very talented storyteller,

intuitive storytellers,
he likes to tell stories

and people are listening to them,

but sometimes they tend to forget

why they're telling the
stories and they tend to forget

the stories are also impactful,

so they will tell the wrong story.

So there are great
storytellers, people listen,

but then people leave
after they heard that story

and they get the wrong message,

not what they wanted to say.

So in the business world, I'd
say that the perfect story

first of all, understands
the power of stories,

understand that stories can
be very dangerous also, okay?

And then you start with the purpose.

You know exactly why
you're telling the story.

And then you go through
the whole methodology

of storytelling that I
think in the business world

and in politics and in
literature are the same.

You start with, you have to have at the
center of your story,

a universal value, an archetype,

some kind of archetype.

And you have to say
something about that value.

This is how people connect to your story

in the business world.

And I think not only
in the business world,

I think at the core of the story,

the engine of a story is the conflict,

because yeah. People tend to think

that intuitively, if
some of my students think

that when I tell a business story,

I don't want to be
conflictuous, people think

I'm (indistinct).

No, there is no story in
my eyes without a conflict.

And the conflict is the
engine that drives this car

and only through those.

You have to decide right from the start,

who are going to be your
antagonist in your story.

There could be several antagonists.

It can be nature, it can be society,

it can be your boss, it can be your peers,

it can be your competitors.

And only through those
forces of antagonism,

you're actually able to flesh out

what is the value of the story.

What are the real choices that our hero

or protagonist makes?

And we only learn about those,

about the ideas and the values,
and about the true character

of our protagonists through
those forces of antagonism.

- For me, it's not just your audience

that you need to know and
why you're telling the story.

I think if the questionnaire,

the person asking the question,

the phrase, perfect
storyteller is just basically

an effective storyteller.

You can only be effective
if you're telling the story.

How do I put this?

I tell my students,
you can only write well

if you write yourself,
not autobiographically,

but you have to know
yourself to write well.

And I think a storytelling
of any kind is the same way.

I can't tell a story the way Guy tells it,

not if I wanna be a truly effective one.

I have to tell it the way I tell it.

And that requires
understanding who you are.

- In that sense, Guy
said earlier that purpose

is really important.

You have to know what your
purpose is in telling the story.

But for you writing fiction,

do you need a purpose to drive the engine?

- I never think about...

I think about purpose in
very broad ways, you know.

Because again, go back to the question

of effective storyteller.

Well, an ineffective storyteller,

the effect of that is
it's just indifference.

I think that's pretty simple.

If you're not a good storyteller
people don't listen to you.

The question of being an
effective storyteller,

a quality storyteller,

that I think people need to
think a bit more hard about,

much harder about because you
can be a great storyteller,

but if your goals are...

It really depends on the goals

because it can be both a very constructive

and beneficial thing, but
also a very destructive thing.

The way I view my purpose
in telling a story

is if I am seeking truth, in a way,

if I'm seeking a deeper truth,

then what I'm trying to
do is offer the reader

a deeper understanding of humanity.

That is my goal.

Some people, some storytellers,

their goal is to kind of reshape the truth

for their own purposes,

and when they do that, I think they offer,

I think a more shallow idea.

Humanity is not necessarily deepened,

it's kind of curtailed and—

- Even sounds almost like propaganda

in a way, right?

- Yeah, I mean, that's
one version of propaganda.

That's one version of it, absolutely.

- Yeah, yeah.

But I mean, I guess—

- But that is still
effective storytelling.

See that's the thing,

that's still a good storyteller.

So I think it really matters

the goal like Guy says is really key here

when it comes to being a good, perfect,

effective storyteller,
whatever you wanna call it.

I'm sorry.

- No, no.

But the idea that you're trying
to tap into a deeper meaning

of the human or understanding of a human,

that can be really messy.

You know that's a messy narrative.

- Incredibly messy.

- Does storytelling in your context,

Guy, have to simplify that?

I mean, it can have an antagonist,

it can have multiple characters,

but do you have to simplify the narrative

for it to be effective?

- I'm not really sure that
you have to simplify it.

Actually, sometimes
storytelling can make it

even in the business
context can give some more

complicated and richer
meaning to what we do, okay?

Or not here just being
about increasing sales.

There is other things that our values

are universal values

that are values that we care about.

And this is why we are doing it.

I think that the main difference
between the business story

and the literary story or
any artistic story is again,

in the business setting,
you start with the purpose.

You better know what is the purpose.

It's not just that we have a great story.

I'm a good storyteller, I can
tell you all kinds of stories.

No.

You ask yourself first,

number one, what is my purpose?

Number two, who is the audience?

And this is key.

So when you are directing,

when you're writing a script
for a movie or a book,

usually, you want to get everyone
interested in your story.

In the business world, most
of the time you are targeting

something to tell stories to your team.

And sometimes you're telling
stories your shareholders,

and sometimes you're telling
stories to your consumers

and sometimes you're telling
a story to a regulator

and a politician.

And this is where I think

storytelling in the
business context differs

because what I go through with my students

is actually, okay, you need
to understand the biases,

the prejudices of whoever
you have for your audience,

and then you craft a story, okay?

You cannot ignore that.

They came to the conversation
with their own stories

and you should acknowledge.

I call it like when you're
starting to write a story

or something and craft a
story for your audience,

I call it do your due diligence.

Due diligence about who the audience is,

where they come from.

So you wanna know their
political leanings,

you wanna know their religion,

you wanna know their age,

and then you start with the story.

You cannot just say,

"This is a story that fits it everyone."

So this is what I think.

And another thing that
(indistinct) with myself many times

is I do feel that in business stories,

there has to be not only
a resolution that we have

in most stories, usually they're
stories with happy endings.

You can use a tragedy when
you want to warn workers

about safety, you can tell
them the tragedy, okay?

But most of the time in
the business context,

we use stories that have
some kind of happy endings.

And another thing that
I think is very relevant

is that business stories usually end

with an exclamation point
and not with a question mark.

When it's in question mark

people tend to think
we'll see what happens.

Our hero ponders.

He's not sure.

She's not sure.

Well, usually when you are doing
that in a business context,

you will risk having
some of your audiences

get the wrong message.

Or if you really need a message

you wanna make sure that
the end of the story

they understood what is the message

and not end up with a question mark.

- I have a quick question for you, Guy.

I guess the question is, do you think,

when it comes to knowing your audience

and knowing what they want,

is it to appeal to as many
people as possible or not?

Because you know what I would say,

and say to my students or to
any person writing fiction

is that you should not try
to appeal to the universal.

You've heard this, the
specific is universal.

The more specific you
are about your characters

and the world of your fiction

and the more convincing
you make the specific,

that is what will appeal to more people.

And the mistake is always to think,

write a story that will appeal

and that people identify with,

as many people would
identify with as possible.

And I feel like that's always the mistake

in literary storytelling,

but do you think that's not the case?

- Well, first of all, I
totally agree with you.

It has to be very specific,

and it's about very specific
people and events and details

and all that.

As for the universal, yes,

if you can tap into a universal
value that will capture

most, the heart of our story,

our business stories are controlling idea,

which is some kind of a
universal value usually,

or value that is dear to your audience,

and some message about that value.

The value can be, I dunno, teamwork,

and some message about teamwork.

If we work together, we are
going to be very successful.

So this is important but
in the business context,

I think that you have to
know what are the values

of your audience, okay?

Don't try to tell them a story

that they don't share the same value.

If this is the value in the
heart, central to your story

and they don't share that value,

they will be less responsive to it.

You won't be able to persuade
them and to engage them.

So again, the question you always ask

Is, there is this tension.

On one hand, you want
to instill your readers

or your viewers with your ideas.

On the other hand, you have to acknowledge

that they already have their ideas, okay?

You cannot ignore them, okay?

You might want to introduce new agenda,

new ideas, but even if you want

to really change their minds,

you have to know where they come from.

Otherwise, you will
not be very successful.

- We have a question that I think...

So you used changing minds,

persuasive selling, and
Lars Echo from Dubai says,

"Where is the fine line
between storytelling

and manipulating?"

- Well, first of all,

I think manipulation is
not inherently a bad thing.

By definition, the word manipulate

is to do something with skill,

to do something well with skill.

In a skillful manner, basically.

So I don't think the question
is about manipulation.

Again, I can't help but come at this

from a more cynical literary view,

but I feel like the question
should be again about purpose.

If you're coming at a story,

if you're trying to fight against reality,

if you kind of see
reality in a certain way,

but you're trying to fight against it,

and kind of reshape
it for your end goals,

that's one thing.

But if you're open to
reality, as you see it,

because I know we all approach
and see reality differently,

but if you are open to it

and you're willing to
capture it the way it is,

and what you're shaping
is really just about

making it more coherent
and alive for the audience.

I think that's the fine line;
fighting against reality

or being open to it. I don't
know if that makes sense,

but I think that's a very big difference.

- The fine line is the intention, okay?

So stories that manipulate us, or stories

that are trying to fight
reality for good causes

are actually, you've looked at the structure

and the impactful stories,
the manipulative stories,

and the stories that are
trying to make the world

a better place,

actually, they have the same techniques

and the same structure.

So just by looking at a story,

and emotions are very
important to stories.

And so just by looking at the story,

you can say that the manipulative story

and other stories are the same.

The question is, what are the
intentions of the storyteller?

Why is he telling that story?

And one person would think,

this is manipulative because
this is their set of values,

and the other one would say,

these are the stories that
will lead us to a better world,

because she or he has
different set of values.

- Right, it's trying to make
you see something different.

So in a sense has to
manipulate to make that happen.

- As Vu said, fighting reality.

I like that definition,

that most of the time
in the business world

we're trying to fight reality
or trying to, you know...

This is the reality you'd see out there,

but we wanna offer you a different way

of looking at things.

- Another way to look at is

I find it very...

I don't know, my first word was amusing,

but when people say that
nowadays if anyone's biased,

that's a bad thing.

Bias inherently is not a bad thing.

It depends on how you came to that bias.

If it's informed and not prejudiced

information or way of thinking

that brought you to that bias,

I think that's perfectly human.

You have to have bias, you know.

You have to be discerning, right?

It's the same thing with manipulation,

it matters where it's coming out of,

like Guy says, what its goal is,

and what is the source of it.

If the source is coming from
a thoughtful discerning place,

I think that's what matters the most.

- Well, we've been talking
about some really big ideas

about human behavior and making meaning.

Let's dive into some examples.

I love this quote from
Ira Glass who created

"This American Life,"
which is a very powerful

storytelling machine.

And he says,

"Great stories happen to
those that can tell them."

So let's talk—

- I didn't know that,
but that's a great quote.

- As you look across the
cultural or media landscape,

and I know you both have examples,

who are some people that
excel at storytelling and why?

Guy, do you wanna start us off?

I know you have a couple.

We're gonna do a deep dive
into some master storytellers

as we see them.

- So first of all, I totally agree.

Every now and then I would have a student

coming to me and says,

"Well, professor, I
don't have any story."

I say, "No, no, everyone has the stories.

The only differences
is who is willing to try

to find his own stories
and tell his own stories."

I never met anyone who doesn't have

really interesting stories actually.

And now, so the masters that I think

if we're looking at the
business world today,

I think that probably two
of the top storytellers

of this time and age are
Elon Musk and Warren Buffett.

So Buffett has been
around in the center stage

of the business world for,
I dunno now, 50 years.

And I believe that a lot of
people would tell you Buffett.

Everybody knows Warren Buffett

because he is the best
investor in the world.

The more I studied Buffett

and actually I had the
opportunity to sit down with him

a couple of times and see him in action,

I realized that actually
Buffet is a storyteller.

The real reason everybody
knows Warren Buffett

has to do with storytelling.

I'll give you an example.

So, every year, some
thirty to forty thousand people

buy a plane ticket, a very
expensive one, by the way,

and fly to Omaha, Nebraska, for the annual

shareholder meeting of Berkshire Hathaway,

that's Warren Buffet.

And I went to this meeting twice.

And you enter a stadium
with thirty thousand people.

Now, this is streamed
live on the internet.

You don't really have to come there.

And actually, what happens
is that you have two guys,

Buffett and his partner, Charlie Munger,

cracking jokes for eight hours.

So why would people come
and spend so much time?

And the answer is because Warren Buffett

in the last forty or fifty years
has been able to organize

all his communication,

whether it's these shareholder letters,

or those events or hundreds of interviews

that he would give every year.

And so, he's organized.

He has this big organizing
story of who Warren Buffet is,

who Berkshire Hathaway's is.

And this is a story about, you know...

The value of the story is capitalism,

the message about this story
is that capitalism done right

benefits to everyone.

And in many ways, people
who are buying stocks

of Berkshire Hathaway are
not only making money,

they are part of that American dream,

capitalistic brains, and so on.

So they feel that they have some meaning.

And they would spend time,

and they would follow
every word that he says

because they feel now...

We live now today in a world, especially

since the financial crisis,

that this value of capitalism
is under constant attack

all the time.

And a lot of people lose their faith.

And so Warren Buffet is a figure

that helps people, like, restore.

People need some organizing story.

Restore their faith in capitalism, right?

If we do capitalism in
Warren Buffett's way,

actually it benefits everyone.

Now, interestingly enough,

when you look at all the small
stories that Buffett tells,

and his meta-story about capitalism,

you look at the details, actually,

you see that there are a
lot of counter-narratives

and counter data points
that if you look at them,

actually, you see that Berkshire Hathaway

is not that different
from many other companies

and nor is Warren Buffett, okay?

There are numerous
scandals in his companies,

there are a lot of problems there.

And you'd think that those problems

are staring in front of us,
and yet people look away.

Why, because they have this amazing story.

So let me give you another example.

So everyone who invests
in Warren Buffett's stocks

knows about the moat.

You know what is the moat?

So the moat is rule number one

of Warren Buffett about investment.

He only invests with companies with moats.

Okay, what is a moat?

So in Warren Buffett's words,

moat, you have this valuable
castle, medieval castle,

that is run by this duke.

And in order to make sure
that people don't come

and take business from the castle,

he builds this moat around
the castle with water,

deep water and crocodiles.

This is a great story.

You immediately see the corporate story

is something very nice,

but the truth of the
matter that in economics,

we have another word for a moat,

it's called monopoly, or market power.

This is the real moat.

But Buffett actually invests in companies

that have a lot of market power

and then don't have a lot of competitors

and they make sure that they don't have

those competitors in many ways, okay?

But Warren Buffett cannot...

One word is that I like
investing in companies

that have a lot of market power

that they can raise prices.

Or I like to invest in companies

that there is very little competition.

No, this is about capitalism.

So how do you reconcile it,

that you want to be this
capitalism is great,

and I invest only in monopolies

or companies with market power?

You come up with a story, a moat.

And he uses it all the time.

So every time there is some questions mark

about the business model
of Berkshire Hathaway

or whether it really
benefits society at large,

or just shareholders in his companies,

he would come with some
kind of an amazing story.

And it's amazing to see how,

the reality is staring
in front of our eyes,

but we hear that amazing story.

And when I studied Warren Buffett,

I looked at him telling
stories 50 years ago.

And what I realized that 50 years ago,

the guy didn't know to tell stories.

So while he developed
his acumen in investing,

he actually developed an acumen

and became very professional storyteller.

So he says, for instance,

he's against oversized paychecks

and he's against stock
options for executives,

which makes him very
unique in Wall Street.

So about eight years
ago, Coca-Cola company,

one of his biggest investments,

they announced they're
going to give something

like $7 billion option plan
for the management team.

And Warren's son, Howard,
sits on the boards.

And it was interesting to
see what's gonna happen.

There is this story, Warren Buffett,

calls stock option like stealing money

from your shareholder.

It was very interesting to
see what's gonna happen.

And actually what happened

is that Warren Buffett's
representative abstained.

So he was asked in the media,

"How come did you abstain?

You have these rules about investments

and they are, in your words,

stealing money from shareholders."

So what did he do?

He told a story.

He says, "You know what?

If you keep belching at the dinner table,

they will send you to
eat in the kitchen."

A story.

We can see it it's immediately.

It's like one arc of a story there.

But actually, what is the story?

The story actually says
is that corporate governance

and boards are just rubber stamps.

You cannot really do anything
meaningful in those words.

But again, you can get away with it

because he is a gifted storyteller.

- So I know you have a
story about Elon Musk,

but I'm gonna give Vu the platform now

to talk about someone you think

is an effective or not
effective storyteller.

Someone who is able to spin tales.

- Oh man.

I was thinking of someone.

So if you had asked me like a year ago,

who is a great storyteller
and was able to say,

retell his story in a
way that was successful,

I would have told you Bill Gates,

because for so long, in many ways,

the media told his story for him.

He was this kind of
tyrannical businessman.

And if you're an Apple person,

he's totally enemy number one.

The portrait of him was not
what has kind of come about

through the Gates Foundation,
after he left Microsoft.

How long has the Gates
Foundation been around?

- He left running Microsoft
like 18 years ago.

- It's been a while that he's been able

to kind of retell his story.

And now, especially in older age,

he's this kind of fun,

wears these sweaters,

he has glasses and he seems much kinder,

much more grandfatherly, if not avuncular,

and he's saving the world.

It's very pointed that he
does so much of his work

in Africa, for example,

where he can work out these technologies.

Technology will save the
World, is basically part

of his narrative.

And he's at the center of that
with the Gates Foundation.

Now that story kind of
fell apart after this year

with all this stuff that
comes out about his wife

and his other relationships, et cetera.

And that seems to me a good example

of when a story can fall apart

if your personal truth is not stable.

But at the same time,

I'm hesitant to talk about
Trump, but I have to,

because Trump is an example
of a very good storyteller,

a quite masterful storyteller,

but it is not based on a
stable, personal truth,

in my opinion.

And for some people that's okay,

or at least they're willing...

I think actually, and this might dovetail

with your ideas on Elon Musk.

I'm not connecting Elon Musk and Trump.

I'm not trying to connect
them, only in one way,

which is that idea of authenticity,

that is both part of their narrative.

The thing about Elon Musk, for example,

is that he traffics in the
idea that he is authentic.

He smokes weed on Joe Rogan, right?

These kinds of like erratic,
very controversial tweets.

I think more than any well-known CEO,

he feels and seems authentic.

But that authenticity,
like it is with Trump…

When you can kind of cultivate
that idea of yourself

as authentic,

it really seeps into
everybody's idea of you,

especially people who support you

so that when you do do
something questionable,

say for example, Elon Musk,

when he tweets out something
really problematic,

even if it's problematic
to his supporters,

they'll still say, "Well, at
least he's being authentic."

- That's who he is.

- And that's the same argument

that a lot of people who support Trump

will say when they advocate
for him or defend him

or whatever.

And I find that narrative of authenticity

quite powerful these days,

because people, I think
the world at large,

for example, because of social media,

we inherently are suspicious of things

that feel inauthentic.

We know the world is much
more performed nowadays.

We just know this inherently.

So we are desperate for that
feeling of authenticity.

And I just find it deeply ironic

that we find authenticity
in people whose authenticity

is more narrative than anything,

a more kind of manipulated story.

- One technique that Warren Buffett used

to make sure that we know that
he's the third or the fourth

or the fifth richest person in the world,

investing in companies with moats,

that we feel that he's very authentic

because if you Google Warren Buffett

and look at the images,

you'll find something interesting.

There are tons of photos
of him on the internet

taken from news magazines
and from television

where you'd see Warren
Buffett eating an ice cream.

Now, so it's true one of his companies

is an ice cream company,

but even the CEOs of Unilever

or the biggest manufacturers of ice cream,

this is not how they take their photos.

And this is not how they hang around

in shareholder meeting eating ice cream.

And I said, what is it about?

Does he really need this ice cream

when he gets off the stage
because we has a sugar rush?

Of course not.

When we see someone is having ice cream

or a milkshake or Big Mac,

and we see all the times in those photos,

he's like a real person.

This comes out as very authentic.

He's like everybody else.

And then he has the story
that a lot of people believe

that, you know what, actually
investing is super simple.

These are the rules of investing.

Everyone can be an investor.

You can be, if you follow
those investments.

So this is a way to create
this authenticity also

that I'm just like the common person.

- Oh, right.

But there's something interesting,

and we got a lot of questions from people

about the impact of social media.

We had a question about,
what's the difference

between a story and a meme,

and that we do know the
world is more performed,

but we also know you
can perform authenticity

and we're expecting people in
some way to perform for us.

I think about someone like
Aaron Rogers, for example,

and what's happened to his narrative

around vaccinations, and
that the way social media

plays a role in that,

what do you think is
happening to storytelling

up against the pressures
of any of these platforms

of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,

where there's kind of the story,

we've talked at the beginning

about being control freaks,

and wanting to have control the narrative,

but here it just keeps spinning.

And it goes through the hands
of so many different people

gets interpreted, turned into a meme

that then becomes something
that people connect to

and feel really satisfied.

- So Alison, at this point today,

and we are in the fall of 2020.

So we had this intuition for years now

that social media also known as Facebook

talk about moats and monopolies.

So social media they prioritize
the wrong kind of content,

lies, manipulation,
polarization, hate, and so on.

That was our intuition for a while.

There was not enough data,

but what we've seen now
from the whistleblower

that came out of Facebook two months ago,

Frances Haugen is that Facebook people

are looking at the internal data

and they are the only one
that have all the information

because they are not willing to share it,

of course, with scientists

and with the world at large.

We see that actually, what
gets viral on Facebook

is the worst kind of stories.

And this is how the algorithm works.

The more there is hate,
the more there is rage,

the more there is fear,
the more lies by the way.

So I think it was like MIT.

I think the MIT scientists
Had, did it on Twitter,

that they proved that actually lies

are more viral than the truth.

- You want to engage more.

- Yeah, and we wanna engage more with lies

than we wanna engage with lies,

with hate, with polarizing ideas.

So I think we are in a
point in time, is that,

it's not like we have different stories.

We've always had manipulative stories

and lies and false
information and propaganda.

What we have today that we did,

and we had it in traditional media.

We had it in media that was controlled

by governments for years.

We had it by rating
hungry television channels

that just want the sensation.

But what we have today is the
most sophisticated machine

in the history of mass media.

A machine that actually can craft stories

according to what...

They prey on our weaknesses.

They know who we are,

they know what our prejudices,

they know what will go viral

and they target each one of
us with different stories.

So I think one of the questions

when it comes to storytelling
in this time and age

is how do we reign in on those machines?

Because those machines are designed

to spread the wrong stories.

There was a story up until 2000

and up until the last 2016 election,

the dominant story that Facebook crafted

in a very calculated way,

it was Facebook is
democratizing the world,

everybody has a voice.

And how we know that this is absurd.

This is like, there is one company

controlled by one person,

he cannot be fired because
he has those kind of shares

that actually decides what
goes viral in our society

and what people are exposed to.

And not only that, they
already know that virality

is caused by lies and by fear.

So this is the most anti-democratic
machine in many ways.

I don't know if you remember that in 2011,

we had the Arab Spring.

And people said,

the Arab Spring was organized by Facebook.

So there is this story about Facebook

democratizing the world.

It took us ten years to
actually to understand

that this is not what Facebook is doing.

- Right.

Well, that's a repeated narrative though.

Every new technology says that its goal

is to democratize information
or content or access.

I wanna ask you based on this
conversation about Facebook,

which is a serious one and ongoing one,

but who needs the most help
in storytelling, do you think?

Is it government?

Is it social media platforms?

Is it business?

Is it the humanities?

Who really needs?

Who's not telling good stories

or who needs some hard cry
lessons from the two of you.

- That's a difficult question.

- I would argue that some companies

like Facebook lost their
ability to control the narrative

in the last four years.

And Mark Zuckerberg is now
horrible at storytelling,

and nobody believes a word he says.

But I don't think that he
needs to be better storyteller.

No, no, we don't need
him being a storyteller.

What we need now is the
people who would like

to reign on big tech monopolies.

These people need better stories

and explaining people
that if you are coming now

and trying to regulate
or break up big tech,

it's not that you are...

They needed a story that explains that

if we reign in on big tech,

actually we are going
to improve innovation

and we're gonna be more democratic

and we're gonna have more growth.

And sometimes the people who
are trying to do it fail.

And because the dominant narrative was,

"Ah, if you're going after big tech,

you're gonna stymie innovation."

So we need to come up with new stories,

using history, using other disciplines

to show you that actually,

when reigning on those big
monopolies and company,

actually everyone is
going to be better off,

except maybe for Mark Zuckerberg.

- I can't think in terms of institutions,

to be honest,

I can only think in
terms of the individual.

And I just feel like we need
to pick who we listen to

much better, especially if
you wanna be a storyteller,

I think you really need to pay attention

to who tends to listen to you.

Because if gullible
and undiscerning people

tend to be the ones that gravitate

towards your storytelling,

you will continue to
appeal to only gullible

and undiscerning people.

And I think you really
need to pay attention,

more attention to the
kinds of storytellers

you tend to listen to.

Because we can't help, but shape,

fashion ourselves around
the people that we admire.

Especially if we're telling stories,

we wanna tell stories like
the people that appeal to us.

I think that really matters.

And I think just a real quick
thing about social media

is I think that the huge
difference with social media now

is that never before in human history,

has the individual had
the ability to select

and control who they are in the world,

and to disseminate it.

I mean, a nobody could have
like millions of followers,

essentially.

So not just access as
many people as possible,

but to disseminate yourself the way,

there's so many more stories now,

and there's so many
more ways to control it,

to be selective about it.

- When you have so many
stories, of course,

it's very difficult to
understand what are the truthful

stories and what are lies.

And there is no hierarchy anymore.

The only hierarchy is
determined, but what goes viral,

and what does the algorithm decide

that they're going to
prioritize in your newsfeed.

But going back to your questions about

where we need better storytelling.

I think that the obvious answer
for us is climate change.

You'd think that this is the
biggest story of our generation

and still if you look at the
results of the conference

in Glasgow last week, we
didn't get what most people

want us to get.

And I think that it looks
as if it's now the agenda

everywhere, the news agenda everywhere,

but still the story is
not convincing enough

for all the politicians
and all the leaders

of the industrial world to come together

and to take firm action.

We should be taking all of
the energy of storytelling

to find out ways,

to make sure that people understand it

and feel that this is here and now,

and not something in the distant future

for the next generation.

And then because reorganizing our life

to combat climate change means

we'll have winners and losers.

And now we need another story,

which is that the winners
will compensate the losers.

And this is something that most
countries around the world,

we are not very good in
telling those stories.

Actually, in many ways,

the only cultures and countries

where they have this dominant story

that changes are good
and destruction is good,

and technology is good because the winners

compensate the loser.

This story, you can see only
in the Northern European

countries because they have
a lot of common stories

for everyone.

When everyone believes
and we have common ground

or believe in the same facts,

we can also tackle very
existential threats and challenges.

- Some of the themes that have
been part of our conversation

just now, I mean, talking
about social media,

is about truth,

the connection between
storytelling and truth

and about intentions and impacts.

I wanna turn to some of the questions

that we've been getting.

Thank you, everyone for
submitting your questions.

They're really terrific.

And I think we are all storytellers

and we can use that skill
to good or evil ends.

We get a question here
from Denise who says,

"What process or method do each of you use

to be a responsible
accountable, ethical storyteller?

And do you think there's such
a thing as a storyteller's

fiduciary duty to an audience?"

So, I mean in some ways,
I think Denise is getting

at not just the intent, but
the impact of storytelling

with her question.

So I'd love to hear your
thoughts about that.

Vu?

- Repeat the question.

- [Alison] Sure.

It's, what methods do you use

to be a responsible and
ethical storyteller,

and be accountable?

I think Denise is thinking,

what is the impact of
all this storytelling?

'Cause you may intend to tell
a story that has this outcome,

but the impact can be very different.

So what accountability do you have

and how do you think ethically

when you use the power of storytelling?

- There's so many ways
to answer that question.

I mean the thing that I just returned to

and which I've already said before is that

am I open to the world?

Am I receiving it as it is?

And am I then translating
what I see in my stories?

Or am I just trying to shape
the world as I want it to be?

I feel like that is central to my ethics,

as a storyteller or as a writer,

but just as a person.

Every interaction I have with people,

I'm kind of performing.

I think we all do that.

And I'm aware of that,
but at the end of the day,

am I trying to understand myself better

when I tell a story?

And am I trying to understand
other people better

when I'm telling a story?

That's a very simple goal for me.

And that's all I can really do.

Because everybody's ethics
are kind of different,

and everybody's goals
are kind of different

when they tell stories.

And that's where I start.

And out of that, there's all these other

quite ethical questions
and moral questions,

but that's what's most important to me.

- I agree with Vu actually.

So, when you tell a story, first of all,

with great power, the
more you have a stage,

the more you're influential
in your storytelling

and you know that you influence people,

you have more responsibility

and thinks about what kind
of stories are you telling

and what is the impact
that you're going to have?

And I think Vu's starting point is good.

You wanna ask yourself,

is this normative or this is positive,

this story that I'm telling.

This is me trying to influence the world.

This is me because I
have these set of beliefs

or this is me just describing
what I see out there.

And you wanna make sure as a professor,

as a scientist, as a journalist,

that people understand that
when you're describing,

when you're telling a
story describing the world,

you better make sure that if
this is how the world it is,

and I don't think that this
is how the world should be,

you better make sure
that you communicate it.

And I think that if you wanna be ethical

about storytelling,

you should make sure
that the audience knows

where you're coming from and
why you're telling that story.

Be very explicit about
what we are doing here

and not just tell this
story out of the blue,

because when you're just telling a story

and people don't understand
where you come from

and what is the purpose of your story,

this can be manipulated
for some audiences.

- I think it also depends
on how you approach

the whole idea of like,
certainty and uncertainty.

I mean, I am okay with questions.

I'm okay with uncertainty and doubt.

I think it's a very
productive state of mind.

A lot of people are not.

And a lot of people who tell
stories, I imagine in business,

want to kind of remove
that idea of uncertainty,

the idea of doubt and questions.

I mean, that's the other
aspect of how I approach

storytelling is that I, am
I moving towards questions

or am I moving towards answers?

I don't know how to come to a
certain answer about anything.

And I like that because
the world opens up for me.

When people ask me for
general advice about writing,

I always tell them to
beware of good advice.

I'm not talking about bad, silly advice.

Obviously, you should ignore that

if you already know that's bad,

I'm talking about the kind of
wisdom that people give you

that sounds earth shatteringly true.

You have to be wary of
that because the instinct

is to always apply that to everyone

and to apply that to yourself
at every stage of your life,

things change.

What is true for you one
day will be less true

or more true another day,

but always you have to question it,

you have to challenge it.

So that's how I approach storytelling,

from that view that
things can't be certain.

But that's a good thing.

- Guy, is that questioning
of value when you're crafting

stories in a business context,

or is it that you really
want to provide answers?

- No, you don't need to
provide always the answers.

You can raise questions, but first of all,

when you raise the question, you say

you already bring value is because

these are the important questions.

This is our agenda

and when we choose the questions

that we want to think
about, or try to answer,

we already instilling some
values into our conversation.

I think that most business leaders,

understand that the audience understand

all about uncertainty.

And most of them don't
wanna tell the people,

"We know exactly how the
future is gonna look like,

and we know exactly where we are gonna be

in two or three or four years."

They say it's what they offer
to all the other stakeholders

is that there is some kind of value.

There is some kind of
value in why we're doing

what we're doing.

And the way we do things
is tied to those values.

I don't think you want your story to think

that you have all the answers.

- So we have some questions

that are just really
looking for advice, right?

We have a good question
from John in Dallas,

"How can storytelling be utilized
to benefit one's career?"

- Tremendously.

Actually, in my storytelling class,

I offer students three
activities or themes

that we'll be learning.

Number one is how to tell
your own personal story

to advance your career.

Number two, how to understand
the world around you.

Once you understand that actually,

everybody's telling stories,

politicians, regulators, companies.

Number three, how do
companies craft stories

and control narrative
and how they sometimes

lose the narrative.

And what I see almost every
year is that most students

are interested in the first one.

Let's talk about my ability to tell,

to craft the story, my story,

and how to use it for my career.

So the answer is that you
use storytelling to get a job

when you're interviewing,

you use storytelling to convince
or to persuade your boss,

you use storytelling to lead your team.

Storytelling is critical
when you want to introduce

change to an organization,

because people hate the change,

and you need to come up with stories

of why we need this change.

And sometimes you need
to come up with stories

about the future.

So a story about change
usually starts like

at the bottom.

We are now at this bottom
of the arc, in this crisis,

and we need to get out of here.

And the end of the story is
going to be much better.

And this is a story about the future

and story about the change.

We use stories with investors.

We use stories and become
more and more important

this time and age, companies use stories

to influence politics and regulation.

If you're in dinner and you want someone

to pass you the salt, you
really don't need a story.

But whenever you need persuasion

and you need to move people
out of what they're doing,

and to act in a different
way, you need stories.

- But—

- Go ahead,

and then I have a question for you.

- And this goes back to...

I think the most crucial
thing is the stories

we tell ourselves, back to that point.

And I think the question is,

how can this improve my career?

The great benefit of
telling yourself a story

about yourself is that it
tells you what you want.

It gives you motivation.

If I tell myself a story
that I came here as a refugee

from another country, right?

And I worked my way up,

and I became the greatest
writer of my generation

or the greatest CEO of
my industry or whatever.

That is a story that we tell
ourselves to motivate us,

because the goal is clear.

The key and the danger is
that you have to be willing

to change that narrative
as things develop.

That's the number one
thing about telling stories

when it comes to like, say
your career or your profession

or your just your life, it
tells you what you want.

- And I would say that if
you want people think about,

how can I change my career?

Should I change my career?

It all starts with knowing
what is your story,

telling yourself your
story, and asking yourself,

"Okay, now do I want another story?"

So this is the way to think
about changing one's career

is first you understand,
what is your core story?

And interestingly enough,

if I have a group of 80 or 100 students,

I would say that sometimes
half of the students,

when they start in their intern,

talking about business school
and not the humanities,

they would have difficulties

in intuitively answering
what is their story,

because they haven't
given it a thought, okay?

You wanna start with thinking
about your real stories.

Where you come from, what
is important for you?

What is (indistinct) for you?

What kind of crisis
you faced in your life?

What are the important
dilemmas that you faced?

How you made those choices.

So going back to what Vu
said in the beginning,

the best storyteller,

it would maybe should start his journey

with 10 or 20 years of psychoanalysis.

(laughs)

If you have the time.

- That's a perfect setup for the question

I wanted to ask you, Vu,

which comes from Joseph from Bakersfield.

What is your best advice for balancing,

getting a quick response
versus deep thinking,

as we tell our stories?

So the stories that
might be about reflection

and going deep, like
psychoanalysis, versus

trying to kind of like
spin out those quick

effective stories.

As a writer, you have to
think about that rhythm

in your stories.

How do you do that?

- That's a great question, actually.

I've never thought about that question.

My quick answer to that is that,

if you want a quick response,

then you create a visceral effect.

For example, violence
creates a visceral effect,

but also a portrait of love
creates a visceral effect.

If you want people to think,

then you introduce ambiguity.

And you know there's a
difference between ambiguity

and vagueness.

Vagueness doesn't make really people think

that just kind of makes people confused.

Ambiguity is when you give at least two

possible outcomes,

usually the opposite each
other two or more, right?

But you don't tell us what
happens or what the actuality is.

And that's the kind of ambiguity

that makes people think, I think.

And of course there's
millions of versions of that.

- I'd like to rephrase what Vu said.

The most impactful stories,

and if you don't have a lot of time

and you wanna be impactful,

it brings a lot of emotion.

Even in the business world,

the more emotional is the story,

people will listen.

And if you know your audience

and you find the right value,

that is central to the story,

people will pay attention

and you will also be able
to transport your audience

through your own world.

And the other thing, I won't say violence,

but I would say conflict.

The more we have conflict,

the bigger are the antagonistic forces

that are playing out in your story,

the more powerful the story will be.

- I have another advice question,

and then I'm gonna come back

to what you were just talking about.

So I read a great quote about stories,

which is maybe a little, we
all know this at this point,

but marketing is no longer
about the stuff that you make,

but about the stories you tell,

which is sort of what
we've been talking about.

Seth Godin said that.

- Yeah.

- But we do have a question.

We've been talking more about
telling stories about people

and telling stories to people,

but Mary Patrick from Athi River says,

"How do you use storytelling
to sell a product?"

Are there some basic fundamentals there,

Guy, that you would say.

- I think that the only
way to sell a product

is through stories.

There used to be this funny quote.

I don't remember who it was.

This cartoon that says,

this is when Steve Jobs
was still running Apple,

"I like paying double for Apple devices

because I feel closer to Steve."

There you have it.

So the machines are sleek and nice,

definitely, most of the time better.

But you know the premium is also.

And Apple has this story,

which is very much
intertwined with Steve Jobs

is this visionary.

And we have a lot of people
know the story of Steve Jobs

and how he was fired,

and now we came back
and all the antagonism

and that he's a visionary.

We like the story,

so we're willing to, every three years,

buy a new iPhone, which
is exactly the same one,

just with another camera
and another camera, okay?

Because it's a great story.

Brands are stories.

The premiums that we're
paying for brands are a story.

I can't think of a lot
of maybe commodities

don't have stories around them.

There are stories about why they fluctuate

and why they will go up
and down, but commodities.

So you look at the list
of the richest people

in the world today.

So I think Elon Musk today is
on the top with 250 billion.

And I think the third place is Arnault,

the guy who owns a LVMH.

Why would people buy those apparel,

a bag or anything like that.

- Louis Vuitton.

- Louis Vuitton.

Why would they pay?

Because they believe in that story.

All those brands have stories.

And this is how we...

Stories are the greatest engine

of most valuable companies today.

- I think one way to look
at it is tell a story

that removes friction for people,

if you wanna sell something,

sell a service or a product or an idea.

I'm kind of borrowing this from...

I forget his name.

A psychologist at Northwestern,

who talks a lot about
the friction involved

especially in business.

But the best kind of story
that removes friction

is what Elon Musk is selling.

You buy this car,

it's good for the environment.

So you're removing the friction

that the fear that you're
indulging in this product

will ruin the earth.

And that's a big friction for
a lot of people, you know?

And that is, it's the story
that Tesla is telling,

whether it's true or not.

- Another thing, let's
talk about (indistinct).

Tesla, as of today, you asked
me that before we started.

So the market cap of Tesla
today is $1 trillion, okay?

So this is totally
unprecedented in the history

of financial markets.

The combined value of all car
manufacturers in the world,

and you throw in Goldman
Sachs and General Electric,

still you don't get to $1 trillion.

And if you ask people who buy Tesla cars,

or people who are investors,
why you're doing it,

they've come up with a lot
of technical explanations

and financial explanation
why they are doing it.

But actually, I think it's
all about the storytelling

argument of Tesla, of Elon Musk.

Elon Musk is telling us these stories.

There is this story about Tesla,

which is where the value
is caring for a planet.

And the idea is that it is
in our individual hands.

Everyone can make buying decisions.

Then there is this story of
SpaceX, which is about life.

And the idea is that the
only way we will prevail,

because we will be able
to conquer the space.

And then there is the
story that he just jumped

on another story recently,
the story of about Bitcoin.

Here, the value is power
and Bitcoin giving power

to the people.

Now, if you look at those three
stories and you add them up,

this is the story of Elon Musk.

The story here, the value is technology.

And the idea is that visionaries like

the entrepreneur himself, not governments,

not collective action,
the entrepreneur himself,

the technology entrepreneur
will solve the problems

of our world.

All those stories.

Now, if you look at the data
going back, and the facts.

And the facts are staring in our face,

we know if you look at
the financial accounts

of Tesla in the last five years,

you know that without
government subsidies,

Tesla would have been
bankrupt a while ago.

But you also to why those
people don't notice it?

Because he crafts such a
holistic story about within.

And we wanna believe in that story

because technology, there is
so much critique of technology.

And he'll come someday,
we can save the world.

Technology can be for the best,

if you just have the
right visionary, people.

- Elon Musk is winning
as far as I can tell

based on his appearances
in these conversations.

But it does make me feel a little cynical

like you Vu to think about that.

But we're almost out of time.

And so I wanted to give
you both the opportunity

for brief closing thought
and end with a question

from Chicago, from Kylie who asked,

"What new ways do you expect

people will tell stories in
the next five to ten years?"

So no big deal, tell us
a story about the future.

- I don't want to predict the
future since it's recording

and I'll be able to watch it.

Everything now is recorded and you can see

what kind of stories you—

- But you are allowed
to change your story.

We determined that.

- So, first of all, I think
that the basic element

of good stories will not change.

Whether we stream it or it's on TikTok,

are not gonna change.

And we still tell our
children today "Cinderella,"

a story that was written, I
believe almost 400 years ago.

And it works.

So the basic element of stories is work.

I think that the biggest
challenge that we're facing

today is with technology

and the way that technology
disseminates stories

and information, that the question is,

are there gonna be machines out there,

artificial intelligence,

that will decide what kind
of stories we are exposed to?

If you look at the stories that we have

coming out of social media,
on TikTok, on Facebook,

or on Netflix, in many ways

they're the same stories that
we've been telling each other

for hundreds of years
or thousands of years.

The question now is that
everyone can tell a story.

What happened to hierarchy?

What happened to who controls
the flow of information

and what kind of stories?

And this is, I think, in many ways,

the biggest challenge that
we have today as a society.

- Vu, final thought, short.

- I think the metaverse kind of embodies

the future of storytelling
in the sense that

we are now telling stories
without showing our face

or interacting with human beings.

I think what we're doing
right now, this event,

which is great,

but it's different when
there's a human audience.

The stories that I tell with humans there

is different than the stories
I tell when they're not.

- This is an age-old story,

the machine usurping human power.

And in this case to tell stories.

So we'll have to see
where that story goes.

But thank you, Vu.

Thank you, Guy so much.

What a wonderful conversation.

Thank you, everyone who joined us

for your fantastic conversations,

for your fantastic questions that is.

Thanks to the Stevanovich Institute

and Chicago Booth.

We will wrap it up today,

but we will have another
program in February 2022.

So something to look forward to.

So please join us then.

Thanks, everybody.

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The Constant Presence of Storytelling

Those who don’t consider themselves artists may feel far removed from storytelling, but we’re all a lot closer to it than we might think, the speakers argued.

“Every single day when you interact with people, you’re telling a story about yourself—the way you dress, how you talk, how you gesture,” Tran said. We engage in storytelling even when we’re alone, he added, which helps us create goals.

“You tell yourself a story about how you should be feeling, and what you want the next day,” he explained. “The great benefit of telling yourself a story about yourself is that it tells you what you want. It gives you motivation. Life is so messy and confusing and uncertain, but stories distill incoherent information into a manageable narrative. You can create a coherent portrait of who you think you are.”

Rolnik agreed, saying that storytelling helps us make decisions and navigate a world that constantly bombards us with information. In his course Storytelling and Narratives in Business, he impresses on his students that everything in the world around them is people telling stories. Companies craft stories, and control—or lose control of—narratives.

“You use storytelling to get a job,” Rolnik said. “You use storytelling to lead your team. Storytelling is critical when you want to introduce change to any organization.” We use stories, he said, with investors, and companies use them to influence politics and regulations.

He pointed to his own early experience as an entrepreneur, and how the ability to convince a lot of people—from his board of directors to his employees—of the sustainability of his business was essential to its survival. “This is what I tell students: at some point in your life, the only thing that is going to save you in your business career is storytelling.”

“If you’re not a good storyteller, people don’t listen to you,” Tran added. Whether their narratives are destructive or rich, good storytellers are the ones whom people will pay attention to.

“Life is so messy and confusing and uncertain, but stories distill incoherent information into a manageable narrative. You can create a coherent portrait of who you think you are.”

— Vu Tran

Specificity Versus the Universal

There’s a mythos that you have to get as broad as possible to appeal to as many people as possible, but the opposite is truer to the reality, Tran argued. The more specific you get, the more zoomed-in the story, the more people are able to see their own struggles reflected in the story you’re trying to tell.

“What I would say to my students or to any person writing fiction is that you should not try to appeal to the universal,” he said. “The more specific you are about your characters and the world of your fiction, and the more convincing you make the specific, that is what will appeal to more people.”

Rolnik added the caveat that tapping into universal values in a story can help you appeal to a wide variety of people, but the key in a business setting is knowing your audience and their values. Otherwise, you won’t be successful instilling in them your ideas. Whether you’re telling stories to shareholders, consumers, or regulators, you have to do your due diligence.

“You cannot just say, this is a story that fits everyone,” Rolnik said. “They came to the conversation with their own stories, and you should acknowledge that.”

To illicit a quick response from your audience, Tran said creating a visceral effect is one of the most effective methods. “Violence [or conflict] creates a visceral effect,” he said, “but so does a portrait of love.”

“Even in the business world, the more emotional the story is, people will listen,” Rolnik added. “If you know your audience and find the right value that is center to the story, people will pay attention, and you will be able to transport your audience to your own world.”

“This is what I tell students: at some point in your life, the only thing that is going to save you in your business career is storytelling.”

— Guy Rolnik

The Ethics of Storytelling

If storytelling can be used to persuade people of your ideas, where’s the line between storytelling and manipulation?

“If you’re trying to fight against reality and reshape it for your end goals, that’s one thing,” Tran said. “But if you are open to it, and you’re willing to capture it the way it is, and what you’re shaping is really just about making it more coherent and alive for the audience, I think that’s the fine line: fighting against reality or being open to it.”

He added that bias and manipulation are not inherently bad. “I think that’s perfectly human. You have to have bias,” said Tran. “You have to be discerning.” The difference is whether your bias comes from an informed and unprejudiced source or way of thinking.

Rolnik emphasized that what matters is the intention behind the manipulation. “In the business world, I’d say that the best storyteller first of all understands the power of stories,” said Rolnik. “And understands that stories can be very dangerous also.”

If you look at stories trying to manipulate us for good or for bad—such as to convince us of the teller’s stance on major political issues like climate change or big tech—they use the same techniques and structure. So what’s the difference?

“The basic element of a good story will not change, even if we stream the story or it’s on TikTok,” said Rolnik. “We still tell our children today ‘Cinderella,’ a story written almost 400 years ago, and it works.”

The biggest challenge we’re facing today is not stories themselves, but whether technology will decide the kind of stories that we are exposed to, he said. With so many stories in the world, these decisions have a lot of potential for manipulation. Particularly in the age of Facebook and the way algorithms can privilege certain stories over others, it is vital to understand where information is coming from.

“If you want to be ethical about storytelling, you should make sure that the audience knows where you’re coming from, and why you’re telling the story,” he said.

While everyone’s ethics are different, Tran emphasized that there’s a specific way to approach storytelling in an ethical manner. The main thing is to “be open to the world,” which he attempts to translate into his stories. “At the end of the day,” Tran said, “am I trying to understand myself better when I tell a story, and am I trying to understand other people better when I’m telling a story? That’s the only goal for me.”

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