The New Rules of Influence

Anita Brick: Hi. This is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career, today we're delighted, I would say way more than delighted, and we're delighted to be speaking with Lida Citroën. She is an executive coach, personal branding and reputation management authority, and helps global executives, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders in more than 30 countries get a fresh perspective on positioning themselves for greater success and really influence, which is the whole point today, because we're going to be discussing her latest book, which is the New Rules of Influence, which is amazing and practical and you are so real, so real Lida.

Lida Citroën: Thank you.

Anita Brick: She's proud to work with international clients, including Google, Johnson, & Johnson and JPMorgan Chase. She has authored numerous articles and been featured in many places, including the Harvard Business Review, MSNBC and Fortune Magazine. Lida is a passionate supporter of the military community, helping veterans transition to civilian careers, and she serves as a member of the board of directors of Project Sanctuary. I love the fact that you do this out of gratitude for all of what our veterans have done. It is amazing that you have written eight books now. Is this number eight?

Lida Citroën: Seven. Don't get ahead of me here. I don't know if I have another one in me, but this is number seven.

Anita Brick: Got it. Lots of really good questions. So let's start off with this is from a Booth student who said, "Even though you talk about new rules, I recently had an annual review and was told I needed more executive presence in order to be promoted when I asked what they'd like to see, "Oh, I'll know it when I see it." Clearly that wasn't very useful to me. Any advice? Really appreciate it."

Lida Citroën: Thank you, Anita and Booth for having me. Love that question. There's actually research that has asked human resource professionals, for instance, how important is executive presence to someone's career path? And the result is overwhelming yes, very important. But then the follow-up question is how do you actually get executive presence? How do you teach it? And the question is responded with, "Well, we'll know it when we see it." We can't teach it, but it's important. Then what are we supposed to do? And I was raised to believe that executive presence, this traditional model meant you acted a certain way, you looked a certain way and you spoke a certain way. It broke down to things like gravitas, this mysterious quality somebody has when they walk into a room and heads turn. And I'm being a little dramatic, but that really is what we think of when we think of gravitas and charisma and a je ne sais quoi is just compelling and draws people towards them. If you can't teach that to someone and somebody doesn't innately have that, how are they supposed to show gravitas?

Image was this idea that we're supposed to dress a certain way. The red power tie, and you're supposed to wear neutral colors. I'm very tall and I was told never to wear high heels because I would scare the boys. There was this formula for how to present ourselves, and then we were supposed to speak in a very scripted, eloquent, polished, almost lyrical way.

The problem with that model, and the reason I wrote the book is I don't identify with that. Most people don't. We don't look like poster child for executive presence. We don't want to be scripted or wear something that doesn't feel natural or real to us, and we want to be seen and heard for who we are and how we are, not to fit into the mold. And that's why I love that question so much.

Anita Brick: Well, I love it too because I get that a lot, and you teach me how to do that. Well, how are they defining it? This person talks about being less than real, and this is another Boothie who said, "I've been told most of my life, keep my head down, follow the unwritten rules and act accordingly. As a result, I presented myself as less than 'real'. How would you advise someone to be more real when I've never been that way? Read this as I'm scared. I'm really afraid that I'm going to be rejected if I show who I really am."

Lida Citroën: Another great question. I will say that even those of us who have more visibility perhaps, it's still scary to show our realness. I've written six business books. This is a book that is from my heart. I share my own real experiences, and it's terrifying for me and I do this for a living. Because when we show our real, our soft underbelly, we're exposing our vulnerability. We're liable to criticism and judgment and rejection, and it makes it so much safer and easier to just stay quiet, sit in the back of the room and nod in agreement with everyone else and not challenge things. But that isn't a life of purpose. A life of purpose is when you can take that risk. When you can find the courage, which is the first rule in the new rules of influence, is to find the courage to say, I'm here for a reason. I'm in this conversation. I'm in this company. I'm in this community. I'm part of this for a purpose. What is that purpose? And then taking a baby step at first to lean a little bit outside from the shadows and make yourself seen, make yourself heard.

Over time, you'll learn how to raise your hand. You'll learn how to assert your opinion more and to do it confidently and clearly. I feel in my body and my being that if we don't live our true purpose, it's sad and it makes my heart break for people who don't feel that their voice and what they have to share isn't worthy because they haven't achieved the role or the level of authority to be heard. It is scary. It will be scary.

Courage is not the absence of fear. It's just working through it and saying, "I believe enough in myself that I'm willing to take that chance." I'll take the slings and arrows that come with it because not being true to who I am is way more uncomfortable.

Anita Brick: Okay. So you use, I would say in all caps, the P word, purpose. Oh my gosh, what does that mean? Is it changing the world? I'm not sure I'm ready to change the world. So how do we get to purpose when purpose can seem either way at 30,000 feet and not relevant to who I am today, and maybe not even accessible? Because a lot of what you talk about, and this is not just this time, but in other things that you've done and written, you talk about how it is important to know the why, but sometimes, even considering looking at the why or the purpose can be intimidating. So break it down for us a little bit of, okay, so how do you get off a zero draft of a purpose?

Lida Citroën: We have to respect where people are. If you're starting off in your professional journey, your sense of purpose might be about solving for things that you need to take care of right away. When you're towards the end of your life, your sense of purpose might look a little bit different. You might be closing things down instead of building things up, but our purpose is why we're here. There's this quote that I've shared in my TED talk. I've shared it in many of my books, and it's by Mark Twain when he said, "There's two important days of your life, the day that you're born and the day you realize why." And I'm a firm believer that each of us is here for a very specific reason and a purpose, if you will, but we may not realize what that is just because we want to. I may have a lot of things I have to put in place before that becomes clear. It will become clear if you're looking for it, but it may not if you artificially want to have that understanding today.

You might just need to create space for it, open your heart for it and create more of a mindset around your purpose to say, "I'm going to try different things. I'm going to lean into different conversations. I'm going to challenge myself in some ways, and I'm always going to have a sense of grounding that if something doesn't feel right, I have the right to say no." Broadening my horizon allows me to see where I'm supposed to serve, where I'm supposed to lead, who I'm supposed to ultimately be in this world, to know that I've fulfilled the meaning that I'm designed for. I didn't figure it out until much later in life. I did good things, I did nice things. I did service-based things, but I didn't have a sense of purpose until I was probably in my, well, I would say 40s, maybe. And that's when it all started to gel and I started to look at these patterns and go, "Oh my gosh, now I see it. Obvious." The pieces were there before, but it wasn't obvious before. So I don't think we can force that.

Anita Brick: I don't think we can force it, but I think we need to make it a little bit easier for people to understand. So maybe you can walk us through, because you worked with people from all different walks of life, tell us about someone you worked with to help that person find their purpose when they were very data/quantitative in nature, because that's not all of our audience, but it's certainly a good chunk of them.

Lida Citroën: That question makes me think of a client who was not only data oriented but money oriented. Everything was about wealth, assets, relationships, things on the resume. It was all about accumulation and proof of concept that they were valid. I'm not a therapist, but in the personal branding work that I do and the executive coaching work, a lot of it is about peeling some of this back. This person was a challenge. They were steadfast. I measure outcomes. If it isn't measurable, it's not worth doing. If it doesn't provide me with an asset that helps me get to the next rung on the ladder, it's not part of why I'm here. It was really asking the question, "Well, where do you think that comes from?" And they talked about their origin story and how they grew up feeling less than, always feeling less than and always feeling like they were marginalized. They weren't good enough, they weren't fast enough, they weren't smart enough.

And this person was so busy focused on accumulating to compensate for that.

When we started having that conversation, I said, "Wow, I wonder if other people feel that way too." And they said, "Well, of course. I'm sure there are a lot of young boys and girls out there who look like me, sound like me, who feel the same thing." And I said, "With all the success you've achieved, if you were to find a way to serve them," and my client got so quiet, I thought we'd lost the connection. And they said, "I would be so honored if I was able to do something to help people who are struggling with the things I struggled with," and that opened a whole different conversation. It didn't happen quickly, but over time, this person started leaning more into that and doing mentoring programs and giving back to the community and eventually started a nonprofit and never gave up the business side, never stopped accumulating, but the accumulation became what fed and funded their sense of purpose. There was no other way to get to that conversation other than to have the hard questions asked. Sometimes it's not obvious to us, and we need a guide to help us uncover that.

Anita Brick: I like that. And I think that one thing, even if someone is very data oriented, they're going to look at patterns and trends at the end of a day, the end of the week, the end of a month, noticing if there are any patterns that make you feel more alive because it sounds like part of living in your purpose is feeling alive and valued.

Lida Citroën: Yeah, absolutely. Whether it's monetary, whether it's emotional or physical, look back and reflect and say, "Where do I get the most joy? Where do I draw inspiration? Where do I draw meaning? And then what does that tell me? Am I using those assets," which again might be more intangible, "To fuel other aspects of my life? And what does that mean in terms of my purpose?" I wish I could say there's a formula for this. You write it on an index card and tape it to your monitor and then you'll find your purpose.

Life isn't linear like that, and I don't think those of us who aren't data and fact oriented have some kind of advantage. I think it's just the courage to ask ourselves those hard questions and then really listen as we answer.

Anita Brick: Here's someone who's struggling with that. I think he knows the why, but he said he has a lot of contradictions. He's an alum. And he said, "You ask about why we want to have influence. I will admit that I have multiple answers that feel true, yet my set of whys has many contradictions. How would you see me being of service to people who have little influence or money in their lives while I can grow my own wealth?" That's a tricky one.

Lida Citroën: It's a tricky one, but I don't think it's uncommon. Most of us are examples of contradictions all over the place, but that doesn't mean that there's something wrong. I have a for-profit business, and I'm very passionate about growing my business and growing my reach and sharing the message that I have to share. I also have a side of my work that is philanthropic, that gives back to the men and women who've worn the uniform of my country. That is not a profit center for me. One fuels the other. If I just focused on the military, I could become a nonprofit unintentionally, and that's not my goal because I have responsibilities and I have a lifestyle I have to keep. But my work fuels what I do in service, and my work is also service-based.

So I get the best of both worlds but I think that's the way it is for most of us. And I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to make a good living, or wanting to be competitive or perform and have influence because we have drive. I think when it's only about wealth and accumulation and stuff, then the influence really isn't the same thing I'm talking about, and I say that in the book. If that's what you're reading this for, to grow a certain number of Instagram followers so you can get brand deals, that's not who I'm writing for. There are so many of us that want to do good in the world and we want to take care of our families. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Anita Brick: I get that. Good answers and I want us to be a little bit more actionable as we are continuing our conversation because that's what they all expect. So here's something that I thought was very vulnerable. She said, "I've always felt I want to influence the world in a big way. How would you recommend I figure out if this is my real desire or is it my oversized ego? Thanks so much."

Lida Citroën: I want to be actionable, because I hear you on that, but it really does start with asking yourself some hard questions.

Anita Brick: Well, that's actionable to me. Questions are great.

Lida Citroën: Okay. Okay.

Anita Brick: Yeah, that's cool.

Lida Citroën: Why would you suspect it's driven by ego? That would be the first question that comes up for me. If a client asks me that, why are you suspecting it's driven by ego? Tell me what that means. Are you using the gains from this influence for selfish reasons? I want to have this kind of influence and do these big things in the world because I want a bigger house. I want a bigger following online. I want to take lavish vacations. Is it to feed some type of need that I have to be validated? I almost don't know if there's such a thing as doing it for the wrong reasons if you're serving others in the right way, and here's what I mean by that.

I once had a client, after a long day of meetings, finally sat down to enjoy dinner, say to me, he goes, "Why are you so passionate about getting your name out there and doing what you do?" And I said, "Because I want to be famous." And he said, "Aha," as if he had broken some code in my psyche. And he said, "It's all ego, isn't it?" I said, "No, I want to be famous because if I'm famous, I have more choice. I can serve more people and I don't have to be beholden on doing work that isn't meaningful." That's what fame gives me. I don't think it's wrong to say, "I want to be famous, I want to have reach, I want to be known," if your goal is to serve, if your goal is to do for other people. It's okay to have an ego. We see leaders all over the world who have tremendous egos. They're not doing it just to line their own coffers, as they would.

Anita Brick: So here's a very practical question a Boothie asked. "I noticed that credibility is one of the rules. How do you advise someone entering a new field and establishing credibility during the transition when they don't really have a lot of credibility in that field?"

Lida Citroën: So there's a formula. Here you go. Here's actionable. There's a formula-

Anita Brick: There you go. There you go.

Lida Citroën: ... that I'm known for teaching. And the formula is value plus action equals credibility. Anita, there's no way around this formula if you want to be known as credible and to be trusted for what you say. So let's look at the formula. The formula starts with values. And when I ask an audience or ask a client to talk about their values, oftentimes, we hear a collage of values coming from their culture, their family, their partner, their social media influencers, all these impacts on their values. But I'm asking, what are your values? What are the two or three values that guide who you are as a person that help you make decisions around that's good, that's bad. That's right, that's wrong. Your values are personal to you. They live within you. Sometimes we have to dig a little bit deeper to get them. Another way to think about it, they're your moral operating system. They allow you to know how to show up in the world. They lead you into the tough conversations. They lead you to avoid the ones you shouldn't be in. Your values are those principles.

Well, the second part of the formula is action. Having your values, you have to show evidence of those values. It's the walk the talk part. Values plus action equals credibility. And the action part can actually be just as hard as the values part because sometimes, we're doing the right things. We're leading with our values. We're making decisions that are consistent with who we are as an individual. But if we don't tell people about it, if we don't connect the values with the action, then they're open for interpretation. And I work in the world of perception, and perception is often wrong. I can see something and judge it incorrectly because I have a belief about what I'm seeing. If you want me to know that the action is based on your values, then you have to tell me why. You have to connect them. You have to lead with your values, make them known, make them visible, and then show me, over time, evidence of those values.

So to someone who is entering a new job or pivoting in their career, you already have some assets, some value assets. Maybe they're on social media, maybe they're in the relationships that you have. So people are leading with that as they introduce you, but now you've got a little bit of a clean slate in a new job. Leading with those values, introducing them, and then living up to them in the way that you act, the way that you speak and the relationships you form is how credibility starts to build. It feels a little clunky. It feels a little awkward, but it is literally the only way.

For example, you have to give feedback to someone, and one of your values, let's say, is honesty. If you have to give feedback to someone and you're going to do it honestly, instead of just giving the feedback and being direct, you're going to say to that person, "Look, I have to give you some feedback and it may not feel great, but I'm going to be honest with you because it's really important to me. Honesty is one of my values and I would expect you to be honest with me as well." Then you give the feedback and there's no misunderstanding from that person of why you gave them such direct feedback. Articulated your values, action has supported that.

Anita Brick: Yeah, but they might still hold it against you.

Lida Citroën: They could, but there is a higher chance of that happening if you don't articulate your values.

Anita Brick: Right. Okay.

Lida Citroën: And I do see this in practice all the time. You don't start with that and you give the hard feedback... This happened to a client of mine recently. The recipient, the direct report said, "Gosh, he was in a bad mood that day. Why did he take it out on me?" And such a crummy boss and had all these different ideas because they didn't understand why that person was being so direct, being so straightforward.

Anita Brick: I like that. Well, here's one. And in today's world, this is a little challenging. And this Boothie said, "I truly believe in equity, inclusion and belonging, but the corporate world seems to be moving in the opposite direction. How can I create positive influence when the world seems to be canceling me out?"

Lida Citroën: That is definitely a topical question. And one of the things I did in the book, which surprised some people, is I do talk about inclusivity. It's rule number five under our goal of finding our people, finding the people that we want to serve and lead is being inclusive. No, I'm not talking about the HR mandate of checking a box and watching a tape and all of that. Inclusivity is a mindset. Inclusivity as a thought process before we try to have influence. So if I want to influence a community, for instance, or a team that I don't come from, I need to ask questions. I need to listen. I need to learn. I need to make sure that the right voices are in the room to be able to support that idea. If I don't, my idea is only going to go so far. I'm not going to have the kind of influence to either drive change or course correct unless I'm inclusive in my mindset.

And we see examples of this all the time, and to this alumni's question that corporations are digging their heels down, "This is how we've always done it. We're not going to think differently. We're not going to change," and so there's this resistance. But it doesn't have to be an initiative. It can be a mindset. And I really believe if we start asking different questions, considering have I thought of everyone who this affects? Have I considered what their take on this might be? Is there somebody I could be alienating with this approach? Let me go talk to that person and see what that perspective looks like. Those are steps to being inclusive and having that mindset. The idea of being canceled is definitely scary, but I think that goes back to something that I talk about in other places, which is the idea of setting up guardrails.

What do you want to be known for? How do you want others to perceive you? You don't have to jump in on every conversation. You don't have to have an opinion about every trending topic on social media or every sidebar conversation that's happening in a meeting. If you do jump in, you should have a well-thought-out idea, and it should be something that's true to who you are and something you really believe in, not just because you don't want to miss an opportunity to jump on that train. And having an inclusive mindset means you're thinking about am I really the right person to speak on this?

Anita Brick: And you're right. We're not always the right person. But sometimes, you're put in situations where it's too late if you're the right person or not. And you gave two examples in the book. One was with military and the other was with a client who wanted another group within the company, and neither was very receptive because they didn't think you knew who they were. How did you not just continue on your way of sharing what is comfortable for you? How did you pivot in the moment? In both situations, you turned it all around. How did you do it? Because I think that's tough for people and I think they could learn from you.

Lida Citroën: It's tough for all of us. The first example you're talking about is when I decided and I felt that calling to serve our military. I didn't know anything about the military, as my husband reminded me in the moment. I didn't have any connections. I didn't have family members who had served. I didn't even have any friends who had been in the military. But something tapped me on the shoulder and said, "This is what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to help these people who have given so much for my freedom," and I marched forward. First program that I taught, I thought I had it all together. I had my PowerPoint, my clicker, my worksheet, everything was ready. And I was going into this group of military service members, actually service disabled, who were transitioning into the private sector.

And I walked in there. The room looked at me like I had four heads. I didn't know their situation. I didn't know where they came from. I didn't know what it was like to come out of the military. And many of them, being service disabled, had limitations, physically and emotionally, that I'd never navigated myself. It was in that moment, and I think I've done this every other time I've run into this, paused, taken a step back and said, "Okay. There's a lot more here I have to learn. Let me ask you the questions and then I'm just going to be silent and I'm going to learn. I'm going to listen and I'm going to learn."

And I did. Over the course of months, I embedded myself with different populations within the military and I learned their experience was their experience. It wasn't mine. We see that a lot today where leaders try to represent a community that they don't come from and they haven't taken the time to say, "Tell me what it's been like. Tell me what your experience is." And then they sit and they listen and they absorb. If we don't see evidence of that, it's really hard for that community to get on board and to see them as an advocate. I now feel like I have this huge network of fans and people who enrich my life, who come from the military because I asked those hard questions and I showed my own vulnerability and I said, "I don't know that answer and I need more help here." And they were more than willing to help me.

Anita Brick: And what was the turning point where you then started feeding them?

Lida Citroën: It wasn't like a day or an event. It just happened gradually. The message I was sharing was one that they hadn't heard. They wanted more and they wanted more and they wanted programs and they wanted tools. And I worked with companies like LinkedIn to create content that could live on, what became LinkedIn Learning. And I started writing books because I couldn't get the message out there fast enough. And my books took off and my LinkedIn courses took off because the need was there and it was growing so fast, I hadn't thought that through, how I was going to satisfy this need. And keep in mind this was not my for-profit side of my business. So I had to still make sure I could pay my staff and feed my family.

Anita Brick: The other example, I remember I was on the train and I was reading this portion, and you talked about how there was a group of people, this was in the for-profit business, and you'd been called in by management and this was not management. And you started speaking and everyone had their, I don't know if it was everyone, but it sounded like it was everyone, had their hands crossed. They had already tuned out before you said more than a few words. How did you turn that one around? Because I think that people are afraid to be authentic because they feel they're going to get stuck and rejected. And in the moment, you were rejected. Give us a little bit of a feel of how you did that that maybe would give us some ideas on how to do that if we find ourselves in that situation.

Lida Citroën: Well, I believe the one you're talking about is actually where I was presenting to a group of people that I was very different from. I came from a corporate background. I wore a suit and the whole thing. And I was working with a school district speaking to a group of school bus drivers.

Anita Brick: Yep. That's exactly it.

Lida Citroën: Wonderful career path, but certainly something I've never done. I've never driven a school bus. Again, showed up with my PowerPoint and my clicker and my worksheets. I thought I had all the answers, which trust me, I did learn that that system does not work for me. I don't do that anymore. But I walked up on stage and I thought I was delivering a program like I did all day long, different audiences. And about 10, 15 minutes in, that's when I started noticing the heads were shaking side by side. They sat back and they were crossing their arms. I didn't present myself like somebody from their community, which I wasn't, but I even presented myself as corporatey, and they were dressed in blue jeans and T-shirts. They drove school buses all day, and my examples didn't resonate. Nothing I was sharing was getting through. And I started to see they were checked out. It's every speaker's nightmare. You have lost the audience.

I don't know why but in that moment, I put the clicker down, I took a deep breath and I paused, I regrouped and I said, "Let me tell you what it's like to put my children on a school bus every day." And I told a story, a very real story. I had to connect with them. I had to show them that I wasn't from their community, but I understood the significance of what they did. And I said, "I'm terrified every day that this adult who I don't know is going to drive my children, the most important thing in the world for me, to school out of my sight. And I got to hope that everything goes well." And I shared it with a lot of humanity, a lot of realness. I spoke from my heart, watched them, the body language started shifting. I had about 200 people in the room. The body language started shifting, and then they started nodding their head and I talked about how important their jobs are and that, yeah, sometimes we don't think to thank the person behind the bus, but we trust you enough to put our children with you.

And so as I kept talking, it wasn't a rally cry, but I was starting to speak their language. Then I got them back and I continued. My message, I modified it on the fly as I was going. I had to speak their language. I had to speak to them. And that was the first time I ever got a standing ovation from an audience.

Anita Brick: It's amazing, but here's something I think is really important to punctuate this with, is that you didn't change your values. You are still real by your own definition. You just connected with them in their heart.

Lida Citroën: And that's what is so powerful about personal branding, about building influence. It's never about changing who you are because who you are is exactly who you should be. But sometimes, our delivery falls flat, or we're not showing up in the right way. Those are things we can modify. I've worked with many clients who their passion, their credibility, everything about them is exactly right. But when they get in front of their clients or they get in front of their senior leadership, it all starts to fall apart because their delivery is wrong, their examples are wrong, the language they're using is too elevated or too simplified, and those are easy things to change. It's not about changing you. It's about sometimes modifying the behavior.

Anita Brick: I agree, and I think stories are really important. I was giving a presentation and it was to a new audience. It was an audience I understood, but I knew that if I use the examples I used for a different audience, they're going to be like, "Well, this is not relevant to me." The core message was the same and what was modified were stories that they could relate to. So I think that that's really, really, really super important. Do you have time for a couple more questions?

Lida Citroën: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: One question that came in, this person said, "How do you recommend someone share goodness or goodwill with an unreceptive or even hostile audience? I want people to know that I value them, but sometimes, they don't want to hear it."

Lida Citroën: Oh, isn't that fun? In the book, I talk about having influence with the naysayers, and I share the example my father was one of those. He never met an idea or a vision that he didn't want to poke holes in. I have another person in my life whose famous expression is, yeah, but. Every time you say something, they go, "Yeah, but." They want to contradict. We can only control ourselves. We can influence others in how we show up and how we communicate. So going back to some of those tools that we've talked about, storytelling is a powerful tool. I work in over 30 countries and the stories, as you said, they have to speak culturally, emotionally, demographically to the audience that we're speaking to. If you're trying to do the right thing, but somebody's just got their arms crossed and they've dug their heels in, it might be a little bit harder.

Maybe that's a good time to ask questions instead of leading the conversation. Ask them questions. Get them talking. Get them to share where they are, and that gives you insight to be able to know how to meet them there. It's not about changing yourself. You want to make sure your message sticks in the right way. They might nod their head and applaud. That doesn't mean that you've influenced them. It might just mean that they've complied. But to really influence someone who is going to be a challenge, I like to ask them, "Tell me from your perspective, what does the word influence mean to you? Have you ever seen influence used wrong?" Dive into the awful stuff. One of the interview techniques-

Anita Brick: Oh, geez.

Lida Citroën: No, but really. I think that-

Anita Brick: No, no, no. I get it. I get it.

Lida Citroën: I do it with-

Anita Brick: It's hard, though. It's hard.

Lida Citroën: ... with clients that are going to be interviewed for jobs. I say, "What is the one question you hope you don't get asked?" They'll say, "Oh. I hope they don't ask me about that one." I say, "Okay. Let's pretend they just did. How are we going to answer it?" Put a light on the worst thing you could get asked. This person who's dug their heels and they don't want to hear from you. They don't believe you're the right person. They've got all of this negativity coming at you. What is the one thing they could say that you don't want to hear? And then look at that and play with it and explore it, because then when you have the conversation, it's usually not as bad as you thought, and you're prepared if it is.

Anita Brick: Good point. Easier said than done, but good point.

Lida Citroën: I know. I know.

Anita Brick: It's something we can aspire to.

Lida Citroën: Yes.

Anita Brick: We like to wrap things up with some very practical, actionable types of things. So here's a question. What are three things that you would advise someone to do to leverage the new rules of influence to be more successful in their careers and life?

Lida Citroën: There are 10 rules. They all work in an order, but they don't all have to work in importance. First thing I would say in those three things that you asked for is to recognize when the tug at you to have influence is non-negotiable. Is it just a seed of an idea or is this really something you need to lean forward into? Do you need to start speaking up in a meeting? Do you need to change the paradigm of how your organization works? Do you need to start a movement? When that is non-negotiable, you really won't have any choice because your heart, your soul, everything you've been designed to do will be leading you in that direction. So look forward and recognize it.

Second, enlist support. I've written this book to give you the tools, to give you the roadmap, to ask yourself the hard questions. Find people that you trust and get them to be on this journey with you. You don't have to do this alone. They can be your accountability partner. They can be your support system. Find those people.

And then the third thing, as scary as this is, be real. Let us know what's in your heart. I'm scared of writing this book and putting it out into the world because people will judge me. People will criticize this. People will say it's not academic enough, even though it wasn't written to be an academic book. But I felt, unwaveringly, that I had to do this, that I needed to reach that person sitting out in the world who wants to know that their voice matters, and I had to do it in this way. I'm being real and I'm sharing my own vulnerability. That's what you have to do too. Recognize when what's pulling at you is non-negotiable. Get some people around you who you trust and you love, and be real. Don't sugarcoat it. Don't put lipstick on it. Don't be somebody you're not, because who you are is exactly who we need to hear from.

Anita Brick: And that is so true, and that is the core of everything you speak about and write about. Because when we are, we tend to behave with more generosity of spirit as well, which just makes it all better, not just for the one person you influence or maybe the many people that you influence, but it's a ripple of who is then able to influence and do they come from a place of discouragement and negativity, or one of encouragement and hope.

So thank you for being that voice of encouragement and hope, and validating yourself and others, giving people the opening to feel valued, and really appreciate it. Thank you so much. I know you're busy. Thank you for making time for us.

Lida Citroën: Thank you always. Thank you, Anita.

Anita Brick: All right, and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.