Career Change Advice

Anita Brick: This is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast to help you advance in your career. Today we're going to be talking about career change—and we receive so many questions that we're not able to answer all of those questions on this podcast. Some did not include contact information. So if you don't hear your question answered today, please send it again to anita.brick@chicagogsb.edu, and we'll do our best to answer them for you today.

We're very excited to be talking about career change with Marian Baker. She's going to share her insights, wisdom and practical ideas on career change. She was recently named one of the top 50 coaches in America, and she helps grow seeking individuals much like yourself. Blend meaning and joy with real-world success. Her new book, Wake Up Inspired: Fuel Healthier Success and Love the Life You’re Meant to Lead, is a pragmatic toolkit.

She has been featured in the Chicago Tribune Health magazine and in the book The Art and Practice of Leadership Coaching. For more information, you can go to www.wakeupinspired.com.

Marian, welcome to CareerCast.

Marian Baker: Thanks, Anita. Good to be here.

Anita Brick: Well, we're very excited, and a lot of questions came in. And I think it's really a testament to the fact that many people are either in the midst of or contemplating a career change.

Marian Baker: Yes, very much so.

Anita Brick: Some people come to me and say, I don't know where to start. So when you're working with clients, what are some of the top three things that you want them to think about as initial first steps?

Marian Baker: Great. Good question. A lot of people come into coaching in that phase of, “I know more about what I don't want anymore, and I'm not sure exactly how to go about this transition or what I really do want. And they're impatient, understandably so, and want to figure things out. And the business culture is sort of quick results oriented. So sometimes they might rush to— OK, I'm going to update the resume, or I'm gonna start networking tomorrow, and that can be a mistake.

So one of the best ways to get started is to realize it's going to take some time, and you're better off to, we could say, reflect before resume. One of my favorite analogies is: think of going into the grocery store when you're hungry, in a hurry, a little impatient, whatever—or even if you go into the grocery store and you're kind of tired and vague—what do you end up with in your cart?

Versus if you go into the grocery store and you've really taken the time to assess your nutritional needs, your preferences, etc., and you've really got a well-thought-out quote unquote shopping list, and then you're hitting the marketplace and preparing your resume and preparing your interview notes and networking and so on. So much more effective.

Anita Brick: So what kind of preparatory measures should someone take to really get a solid foundation?

Marian Baker: Yeah. I often take people through a really specific process. One is something we call the Passion Meets Profit Matrix, which was inspired 10 years ago with that line, “Do what you love; the money will follow.” And I thought, uh-oh, if people take this too naively, that could be cruel. You know, what if they love poetry from the 17th century? That's not going to have 10 grand flying in each month in terms of income. So a more well-rounded model was, you know, what are your passions? What are your gifts, or what are you great at? Who are you attracted to having as clients, employees, employers, etc.? What do they need?

And then that last quadrant is, in the 21st century, what are they willing to pay for? So we start with treasure hunting for what are your passions? And if you ask somebody, what are your passions, that's too direct a question most often. And so we've developed treasure hunting techniques to sort of sneak up on it through the back door.

A question like, what do you love to read but you don't have to for work could reveal lots of insights about what somebody's passions are. And exercise. Like, imagine there are adult camps. You know how they have kids camps, like political camp or math camp. And if we could send you to an adult camp, where would you like to go?

So somebody might say, oh, yeah, I'd love to go to a camp about leadership, or I'd love to go to a camp about gardening or whatever it might be. And all kinds of questions like that could lead to sort of unearthing or excavating more about their passions.

Anita Brick: So beyond passion, what other stuff should someone take?

Marian Baker: Yeah. Also values can come in really critically in this phase, and the bottom line is we may think we've gone through values exercises or if you've looked at, a bunch of value words on a list and circled them, you might know some, but a really effective technique to deeply know your values better can, again, be sort of this back-door way. So asking a series of questions about when have you felt more fulfilled or alive, and then identify what's the value that's been honored in that story or that memory?

Another great one that's more than just values, but a good exercise could be to really think that you're the invisible man at your retirement party—like, time travel all the way into that future space, and think about … I've done this with hundreds of people by now. And, you know, as simple as it sounds, they're kind of a corny exercise. It's very illuminating because we don't do those kinds of exercises very often. So imagine being Invisible Man at your retirement party and get to eavesdrop about what people are saying about you and what gives you a deep sense of satisfaction?

Like, I would love to hear my colleagues say blah blah blah about me, or I would love to feel that my legacy has been such and such. And clients have “aha” moments during an exercise like that, where they realize what's really important to them, what matters most. And then we can factor that in to designing, all right, what's the second career chapter for you, and what does that need to include and really prioritize?

Anita Brick: So one of the things that—actually, this came up in one of the alums had submitted a question about—OK, that's great. I know my values. What resources can I tap into to find out about the values and the management style and the working philosophy and the environments of different companies globally?

Marian Baker: Right. So let's say somebody is further along in the process and they already know what they want, and they're out there networking and interviewing and so on. And yeah, that's one of those things you're dying to know, right? So if I were working with a client, we would probably brainstorm about this or role-play. Well let's see. Let's come up with ways of sniffing out what a company's culture or values are, even the people specifically that you'll be working with.

And we'd probably try to design some questions for them to ask. We might come up with some scenarios. It's almost like the reverse interview. And what are the kinds of questions that would get at cultural values in an organization? You could, you know, maybe present a scenario and say what would happen … I remember once for one client, them asking the question, what happens around here on Friday afternoons? Do things lighten up? Do people begin to slow down at 4:00 or not? And the answer was no. It's, you know, very go, go, go, and we still work till 7 p.m. or whatever. So that was a hint about what the vibe of that culture was like.

Anita Brick: How do you shortcut that process? Let's say on my list of companies that I'm looking at, I have 25. I probably am not going to have time to interview 25 companies. I know there are things like Vault and WetFeet and so on that have some culture, corporate-culture information. Is there anything else that you would recommend if you're looking at a number of companies?

Marian Baker: I don’t know of specific resources that pay attention to, or give you the beat on, the inside culture.

Anita Brick: OK. Well, I know one of the things that our listeners can go to is they can contact the Fisher Career Resource Center and talk to one of the librarians there who may have some additional information. But of course, you know, you can go to places like Vault and WetFeet, and the Career Resource Center has additional things.

Marian Baker: So, wonderful. That's a good thing. That sounds like the kinds of things that you as a resource can really offer people. That sounds great.

Anita Brick: Yeah. It's good. So all right, so now you have this scenario and you think you may want to do a career change. How do you advise people to assess both the risks and the viability of a career change?

Marian Baker: Sure. Let me think of an example, a real-life example. So I had a client, we'll call him Jim, and here he is in an executive career. He's making $250,000 a year. And what's getting stirred up for him is that it's not fulfilling—even though it's successful from the outside looking in, it's just not meeting his needs in terms of deep satisfaction, self-fulfillment, that meaning and joy thing we talk about.

And as you mentioned in your intro, I am fascinated with what it takes to really have both—that it's not just all about spiritual callings or all about just money and outward success, but how do we find in the 21st century that blend of the best of both of those worlds? So with this client, Jim, he was feeling called, pulled to his arts and acting and musical background.

So once upon a time, before he got into this corporate career, he had been an actor and so on, and especially because he had already done that, he was well aware of the vast difference and income potential of his $250,000 white-collar corporate position, and what it might be like to be a quote unquote starving actor. And so we did explore all those things about his values and passions and gifts, and who would hire him and what they would pay for.

And then we got very nitty-gritty about, OK, not just go meditate about this, but let's crunch some numbers and really look at what do you have in reserve and what would it take. And what about a portfolio lifestyle? And when I say portfolio lifestyle, I mean, how do we get creative about not just entirely leaving a career or income stream and going for something brand new, but how do we leverage that past career and possibly just consulting and so on?

So today, Jim did indeed make that big leap after lots of due diligence and thinking it through and crunching numbers and looking at vision scenarios, and he's elated. He said, I feel like I am living the passion-meets-profit kind of lifestyle. And he is doing some corporate consulting as well as acting and performing and looking forward to directing a musical, and it's really working out for him.

Anita Brick: So how did he assess whether or not that kind of move was going to match with the realities of his lifestyle and his family, if he had family? But his lifestyle in general?

Marian Baker: Part of it was crunching the numbers and looking at what could be the realities of some consulting work and who might continue to hire him and so on, as well as what he might end up with in the arts world and what nibbles were out there, looking at the reserve fund, all of that. And also, it's not just getting real about math, but getting really curious about real prosperity and what prosperity means to you.

And let's say, expand that definition of … prosperity has only meant what’s the balance in your checkbook? True prosperity can be more about what are the conscious trade-offs? You know, if he's making less than 250 now, what else is in his life in terms of self-fulfillment or quality of life or autonomy or other values and passions that make him feel like it's a richer life and less math. Make sense?

Anita Brick: Sure. Did he have to negotiate this with other family members, or was he on his own?

Marian Baker: No. He's married.

Anita Brick: So how did he negotiate that with his partner? Who may have to make some sacrifices, too.

Marian Baker: Yeah. I think they did have some heart-to-heart conversations, obviously, about what are our goals, what does prosperity mean to both of us, and what are possible vision scenarios of our life together. And we might sell this house, or we might not, and all those things. So those are important steps in the career change process and having those difficult conversations, because otherwise the whole process can derail.

Anita Brick: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So one of the greatest challenges that people have in the career change process is the lack of experience. How do you prove it? And one of the alums said, he's been saying in interviews, “I believe I have transferable skills. I'm a quick learner,” but it doesn't seem to be flying. So how can someone who is at a midlevel career change sell themselves in that process?

Marian Baker: OK. So let's think about this in terms of what we could call career branding or just branding you as an entity. And here's where … some of my old background, but prior to being a coach for the past 10, 11 years, I used to be in marketing and advertising for 15 years. So it's fun to leverage those skills applied now to individuals' lives and careers.

So if somebody thinks, well, gee, you know, I seem to have these transferable skills and experience, but it's just not flying in my networking or interviews, it would probably be a great time to do kind of a branding audit, if you will. And we could coach that person about what's the desired takeaway when you meet with somebody. What would you love the perception to be? What would you love your brand to be? What do they believe about you? Why do they believe that about you? What's the support for that brand perception, etc. etc.?

And then once we've got that takeaway established, we might say, OK, what would it take for that person to really end up with that perception? And it might include sending them back out into the field, if you will, to ask for constructive feedback and fine-tune that branding so that it would come across more effectively.

And in that feedback, they might also learn what's the gap between what they think is the appropriate transferable experience and what the person hiring is really looking for. And then they'd have some more insight as to, OK, how do I fill that gap? Do I have to get more training or just reposition myself more effectively or whatever?

Anita Brick: So what if it isn't training, and what if the positioning seems to be pretty much in line, but they just lack the hard experience? What do you then advise people to do?

Marian Baker: When you say it isn't training and they just lack the hard experience—oh, I see what you’re …

Anita Brick: It's not educational.

Marian Baker: Got it.

Anita Brick: They understand the work, but they've never actually been in that function.

Marian Baker: Off the top of my head, I would say—and this would, again, be sort of a brainstorming thing if it were a coaching scenario. And I'd say, well, what are the possible ways to gain that experience then? And there's two things that are popping up. I have real-life memories. One is I just saw the movie Pursuit of Happyness. Have you seen this movie yet?

Anita Brick: I haven't, but I've seen multiple clips.

Marian Baker: I would highly recommend this movie for anybody that's even contemplating career change. And it's just a good movie, period. But talk about … and I won't spoil the movie for anybody. It’s such an inspirational message about somebody who has a dream but doesn't have the credentials, the education, the experience of what he's going for and what he goes through to excel and succeed.

And, you know, it's based on a true story. And I believe this person's in Chicago. But this Chris Gardner went from literally being homeless and spending the night in the men's room in the subway station years and years ago to being a multimillion-dollar stockbroker, etc., donating money to Oprah's Angel Network and so on. So that's, you know, just an inspirational story of like, hey, it's possible. Perseverance. Hang in there.

The second idea that pops up is … once upon a time—this wasn't even a coaching client, just a person that I had met—and she was bumping into this thing which was she didn't have the experience to get hired in the field that she wanted. And I said, I know you're already in your 30s, but what if you tried to intern somewhere and go for it and see if you can do it and, you know, figure out your finances or whatever?

And that's what she ended up doing. And she volunteered to intern, got the position, and within six months or so, she could really put that on her resume and had real-life experience.

Anita Brick: So it goes back to coming up with scenarios to manage things financially.

Marian Baker: Sometimes. And being creative and resourceful. In general in career change, you're going to find people who … the energy may be sort of naysayer, like you don't have the experience, you're too old, you can't make this transition … I have a current client who somebody said to her, people will only hire you for what you've already been paid to do. They don't care about what you could do in the future. And, you know, if we want to be cynical, we could find plenty of evidence to make that true.

On the other hand, we could also say, hey, there are millions of people who have gone through career change and who are successful at creating a second act.

Anita Brick: And I think that's why it's important to read the stories of those people so that you are reminded, because invariably people will give us lots of excuses. Yeah, you're too old, you're too young for that. And they're contradictory often.

Marian Baker: And it's part of what, like in the whole “wake up inspired” program or coaching or whatever, that's one of the tools in a way, is to keep finding ways to emphasize positive possibilities. So if you've got, you know, limiting beliefs, we're going to take you through exercises to find encouraging, hopeful, affirming ways of thinking as well.

Anita Brick: And that's one of the reasons why I want … part of this whole CareerCast series is a series within the series of stories of students and alumni who have kind of crafted that using programing and coaching a whole variety of tools. So that's really great.

So this is kind of a corollary to this. One of our weekend students said that, you know, people believe in the limiting belief that certain things like investment banking are only for people up to their kind of late 20s.

He believes that it's total rubbish. However, he keeps coming back to this and people keep telling him this and he's number one, he's concerned that he's starting to believe it. Number two, are some … is it too late to do some careers?

Marian Baker: Again, if I imagine we were talking with this person coaching or if they're in a “wake up inspired” group, we would probably go for the optimism and the encouragement and say, all right, well, that's one perspective. And how many voices have you heard that from? And even if it is a lot of people, we could say go and be a statistically rare success at this.

Even in my field, in coaching, there are plenty of people who say, hi, I'm a coach, and they don't make it as a full-time livelihood. So we could argue that I'm maybe in the 10 percent or whatever of my field of really thriving as a full-time livelihood, and I feel very grateful for that. But in any field where you've got passion and perseverance and so on, you can be the statistically rare success. That's one answer.

Now, let's be realistic also. At a certain point, it may be that that person does need to reassess: how feasible is this? With that particular example, my intuition tells me it's feasible. Go for it. I don't know all the particulars of that person, of course; we both don't. But that's my gut sense. There may be other scenarios out there where, I mean, let's be silly. You know, somebody wants to become a ballet dancer and they're 55 and have never done the training. All the affirmations and positive encouragement in the world are not going to get you there.

Anita Brick: So it really goes back to strategic critical reflection. And then really evaluating both your commitment, but also are you willing to do what it's going to take to do that? Because you could be a ballerina, I suppose, for, you know, community.

Marian Baker: Well, exactly. That's another way to channel the passion. It's like, OK, you're not going to get hired by the Joffrey. But if that's a life ingredient for you, that's important for your fulfillment overall, great. Go pursue it, like you say, in a community something-or-other, dance class, etc., and find other ways to actually make a living.

And that's part of the whole passion profit matrix process; it’s not just one thing, but lots of scenarios.

Anita Brick: Well, and I think it's very important because even with the investment banking, maybe the person decides they are not going to be on the transaction side doing M&A, but they may want to be in that environment in a different function.

Marian Baker: Sure.

Anita Brick: Or even with the scenario in the arts, someone may not be willing to kind of give it all up to do that. But what they could be great at is being a COO of a large cultural organization.

Marian Baker: Absolutely. And even if you take those four quadrants of the passion matrix, it can be a thinking tool. Specific to what you just said. So he wants to be in investment banking. It's not flying in the way he's already thought of, so it can go back to the passion matrix and say, OK, who are the “whos”? Who are the people that are hiring? What do they really need? What do they need now? What will they need five years from now? And again, it might take some field research and real conversations, and then go back to, OK, that's what they need and what they're willing to pay for in the 21st century. What are my passions and gifts that feed those needs and how do I reposition maybe?

Anita Brick: And that's a good point. And I think that, you know, as a refresher, people can go back to the November 2006 podcast on CareerCast, because it was all about crafting the story. So maybe there's some resources that they could use there too.

Marian Baker: Great.

Anita Brick: All right, so career change can take a while. It's not that instant gratification kind of thing. How do you advise individuals to create enough motivation to sustain the energy, the conviction, and the tenacity to go the long haul?

Marian Baker: A couple of things come to mind. One is another component of career change that we haven't really talked about yet today. And we could say it's not just strategic, but also what's your fuel, what's your energy? And when I say fuel, it could be literally like how's the food? What's your exercise like? Because this takes energy, and it can be depleting and discouraging at times. Or even if you're not discouraged, it may take extra energy. And in our culture, we tend to be desk oriented and everything is just from the neck up.

So I really encourage people to think of mind, body, spirit, smart fuel as another critical component in career change or any kind of life transition. You're going to need extra energy for this, and it's just smart for overall vitality and energy anyway. But whether you exercise or not is going to impact your sense of hanging in there, going for the dream, performing well when you're networking with people, etc. That make sense?

Anita Brick: Sure. Any kind of quick pitfalls that maybe you can help people maneuver around?

Marian Baker: Pitfalls regarding hanging in there and … ?

Anita Brick: Career change in general.

Marian Baker: I'm trying to think of what we haven't said already in terms of pitfalls. Well, letting other people's influences derail them could be one. So we already talked about trying to stay positive, but that could include really being aware of—and this is actually an exercise that one of my clients liked—energizers and drainers.

So you could do a log for a week or two about what's energizing to me and what's draining to me.

Anita Brick: Oh yeah. That's something we encourage because I think it's very clear.

Marian Baker: Yeah. You think you might know, but when you really audit yourself like that and come back and talk about it with your coach or your group or whatever, you realize, oh yeah, and even, I hate to say this, but some of the sort of networking, job-search-oriented networking clubs can be a drainer. So that's come up with several clients where something that on the surface is meant to be helpful is actually depleting and becoming a source of discouragement.

So maybe looking at that, like, avoid those kinds of groups, people, etc. Really look for the encouraging energy and stay around … there's lots of buzz around the law of attraction these days, which basically says like attracts like. So focus your thoughts and your energy on what you do want to attract and limit the complaining, etc., because you'll just get to experience more of that.

Anita Brick: True. And if you're around a lot of people complaining, it's just very easy to fall in …

Marian Baker: … It's not like, oh, shut up! Because it is challenging, and we want to give people room to be able to maybe vent and clear and get out of their system, but then get back on the horse and go for, OK, what do you want to focus on? What do you want to experience more of?

Anita Brick: So what made you make a career change several years ago?

Marian Baker: Yeah. I hit my own … I say a lot of people come into coaching with me because they've entered the “is this all there is” phase? And for some it might be career change and for some it might be they already love what they do for a living, but they're just ready to go for higher fulfillment or a bigger inspired mission or something.

For me, I was one of those people with a six-figure income, a great career from the outside looking in and very successful, and I started kind of waking up at two in the morning: is this all there is? How come I'm not happy and everybody else thinks it's successful? Is this, you know, this is it? This is the way life is supposed to be?

And I just had this restlessness. And now I think of it, it's almost a revolution brewing or an epidemic, especially among high achievers, where a lot of them are saying, there's got to be more. That's all there is? I want more fulfillment. And I eventually pried my white-knuckled fingers off of that career ladder and didn't know what I wanted to do, but I thought I was going to take a three-month sabbatical, and my boss was very generous and wanted to pay me for that time, but I said, I can't promise I'm coming back, so I just took the leap.

And at first, I didn't have … coaching really wasn't around back then. So I did a lot of workshops and books and everything. I had a lot of different ideas about what I wanted to do, from running for alderman to opening up a little shop.

And eventually I had this insight that, hey, the livelihood you've been looking for is right under your nose. Because I kept studying about personal growth and holistic health and leadership and live your dreams and ... By the time you've done like the 10th course book, whatever, it's kind of the same stuff. But I love, love, love this material.

And so I started with executive guinea pig friends and took them off on a retreat. And it was “create the life you really want and transition into that.” And then I read an article about coaching, and that blossomed. And now, 10 years later, here I am. And the book Wake Up Inspired is almost the evolved version of that very first binder.

Anita Brick: Wow, that's great. So …

Marian Baker: And I do love my life. I'm grateful every day.

Anita Brick: This is cool. I mean, I think you have to be. Otherwise it’s just … anything, no matter what it looks like, can be an austerity. What's next in your career advancement?

Marian Baker: Well, the “wake up inspired” program is really the big deal these days. So there's the book, and we're building a virtual community online at Wakeupinspired.com, and there'll be monthly circles for people who are interested in healthy success and blending that thing of spirituality and real-world ambition and talking about current events and so on. And I’m probably going to do a group course, like A Cure for the Common Career and do that “passion meets profit” thing as a group course.

And I'm also very interested in an organization called Women for Women International. They empower women in war-torn regions to go from crisis to really contributing citizens. So it's sort of like the global sister version of Wake Up Inspired. If I'm empowering the white-collar achiever female, the Women for Women people are empowering that level of women. And it's just a natural, nice synergy.

Anita Brick: That sounds great. Any final words for people who may be listening on the call who are just thinking, well, I'm not sure this is a great idea to make a career change … I'm really excited to make a career change … but any final words of encouragement around career change?

Marian Baker: Sure, I would say really give yourself permission to ask yourself, what do I really, really want? And don't give up. Don’t say, well, this is just as good as it gets. Don't settle. You weren't born to settle. It's like your birthright to have a fulfilling, joyful life. That is the way it's meant to be. So it may not be easy, but it's worth it. It's absolutely possible. That's one thing I love to tell people. It's like, I used to think, well, this is just the way it is. And you know, I can't fight City Hall kind of thing. … As bizarre as it sounds, you know, 12, 13 years ago, it was like, I didn't think I had a choice. And today I can tell you, hey, if I could do it, anyone can.

There are tools. It's kind of like we have the technology, and it's possible. And I think this is what is brewing. I think there is a bit of a revolution brewing that there are more and more of us waking up to, hey, we want healthier success. It's possible to go for it, and let's support each other and go for it.

Anita Brick: Great. Thank you. And you know, there are lots of tools on the GSB career site, and there's a whole resource section on career change on CareerCast. But in addition to that, Marian has very generously offered each of you access to her Wake Up Inspired starter kit at WakeUpinspire.com. Great.

Marian Baker: That's a seven-part email course. So actually, thank you for saying that. I forgot that. That’s an answer to somebody feeling like, well, where do I get started? It’s not too overwhelming, and it’s a great place to start.

Anita Brick: Great. Well, thank you for offering that free to our listeners. And thank you. Thank you, Marian, so much for sharing your insights and your strategies and your experience, because obviously you lived it first and now you're helping others with it too.

Marian Baker: It’s my pleasure.

Marian Baker: Thanks very much, and for all of you, thank you for listening to this episode of CareerCast. This is Anita Brick. Keep advancing.